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Klackon Vs Meklar

Races Klackon Meklar

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MC182 #1 Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:11 PM

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So I'm reading over the patch notes for 42.4.1 and I'm looking at the Klackon and the Meklar racial bonuses. Let's go through this:

 

The Klackon have the racial traits of:

Klackon Traits (Tireless, Uncreative, Hive-minded)

  • Homeworld Minerals: Poor
  • Uber Planet: Cavernous (transforms from Arid)
  • +50% Food from Population
  • +25% Production from Population
  • Starting Tech: Biology

    and the Meklar get:
    Meklar Traits (Industrious, Erratic, Unpredictable)
  • -50% Food Consumption
  • +25% Production from Population
  • Ship Auto Repair Enabled (instantly repairs after combat)
  • Starting Tech: Physics

    Okay so they both get a flat +25% production bonus. They both basically get at +50% food advantage either through consumption or production. The Klackon get an uber planet which will eventually be replaced by Gaia and won't matter but the Meklar start out having auto repair enabled giving them a massive conquest advantage. However then the Klackon get a poor homeworld basically negating their production bonus well the Meklar maintain theirs on a theoretically abundant or possibly even rich (I've seen it happen where race without a rice homeworld just randomly starts with one)  homeworld. so basically I'm failing to see why one would ever play Klackon when they have basically just a better option in the Meklar. 


GeneralDirection #2 Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:42 PM

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Uber planets are incredibly valuable, particularly since you get the tech far earlier than Gaia, and they are pollution immune. Gaia is still the best overall biome for growth, but the pollution immunity for uber planets cannot be discounted when considering a conquest playstyle.

Vahouth #3 Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:55 PM

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I really don't understand the traits. I mean, what's the uncreative trait for the Klackons? What does it do? What is hive minded? Are they just cosmetic?


GeneralDirection #4 Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:58 PM

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View PostVahouth, on 25 March 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

I really don't understand the traits. I mean, what's the uncreative trait for the Klackons? What does it do? What is hive minded? Are they just cosmetic?

 

In retrospect I shouldn't have added those. They are the descriptors for their play strategies.

Vahouth #5 Posted 25 March 2016 - 07:01 PM

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So what does uncreative mean when it comes to their playstyle? I could understand its value if we had more mutually exclusive traits.

Edited by Vahouth, 25 March 2016 - 07:01 PM.


Arent11 #6 Posted 25 March 2016 - 07:46 PM

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View PostMC182, on 25 March 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

So I'm reading over the patch notes for 42.4.1 and I'm looking at the Klackon and the Meklar racial bonuses. Let's go through this:

 

The Klackon have the racial traits of:

Klackon Traits (Tireless, Uncreative, Hive-minded)

  • Homeworld Minerals: Poor
  • Uber Planet: Cavernous (transforms from Arid)
  • +50% Food from Population
  • +25% Production from Population
  • Starting Tech: Biology

    and the Meklar get:
    Meklar Traits (Industrious, Erratic, Unpredictable)
  • -50% Food Consumption
  • +25% Production from Population
  • Ship Auto Repair Enabled (instantly repairs after combat)
  • Starting Tech: Physics

    Okay so they both get a flat +25% production bonus. They both basically get at +50% food advantage either through consumption or production. The Klackon get an uber planet which will eventually be replaced by Gaia and won't matter but the Meklar start out having auto repair enabled giving them a massive conquest advantage. However then the Klackon get a poor homeworld basically negating their production bonus well the Meklar maintain theirs on a theoretically abundant or possibly even rich (I've seen it happen where race without a rice homeworld just randomly starts with one)  homeworld. so basically I'm failing to see why one would ever play Klackon when they have basically just a better option in the Meklar. 

 

The traits are surely not final. For example the Mrrshan's only combat advantage right now is extended barracks(?) and not beam attack, which seems kinda weird.

 

In Moo1/Moo2 Klackon were the race that could get planets going the quickest because their population itself was productive while meklar had the most productive factories/their *developed* planets were the most productive. From what I can see here, the Klackon can produce population quickly through food, while the Meklar need fewer people to feed their population. I'm not sure whether this results in different playstyles.

 



GeneralDirection #7 Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:13 PM

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View PostVahouth, on 25 March 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

So what does uncreative mean when it comes to their playstyle? I could understand its value if we had more mutually exclusive traits.

 

They are personality traits that primarily impact how the AI plays the race. So for example the uncreative trait typically will result in the Klackon focusing more on expansion than research.

11171971 #8 Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:09 PM

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I have to agree, Klackon and Meklar as implemented in this version are extremely similar whereas they weren't in MoO2. Cybernetic used to require interesting population management because the scientists will eat production too but that's gone now so they've become a pure food/production race. Between the cybernetic penalty and the unification bonus Klackon used to be much better at production (balanced by the uncreative science penalty) but that's also no longer the case. I'm playing Meklar right now and these changes have made them even better than Sakkra (and possibly OP) at early game expansion when that wasn't the case before.

MC182 #9 Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:21 PM

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I feel like if the Meklar consume less food they should probably also have a slower growth rate because after playing about half a game with them they can expand really quickly with all their perks and no draw backs. Haven't tried the Klackon but I feel early on that poor homeworld would be very annoying.

Vahouth #10 Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:04 AM

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View Post11171971, on 26 March 2016 - 01:09 AM, said:

I have to agree, Klackon and Meklar as implemented in this version are extremely similar whereas they weren't in MoO2. Cybernetic used to require interesting population management because the scientists will eat production too but that's gone now so they've become a pure food/production race. Between the cybernetic penalty and the unification bonus Klackon used to be much better at production (balanced by the uncreative science penalty) but that's also no longer the case. I'm playing Meklar right now and these changes have made them even better than Sakkra (and possibly OP) at early game expansion when that wasn't the case before.

 

View PostMC182, on 26 March 2016 - 01:21 AM, said:

I feel like if the Meklar consume less food they should probably also have a slower growth rate because after playing about half a game with them they can expand really quickly with all their perks and no draw backs. Haven't tried the Klackon but I feel early on that poor homeworld would be very annoying.

 

My suggestions exactly. In this thread http://forum.mastero...r-race-variety/  I gave the Klackon an umbreakable morale and slower assimilation rates to imitate unification. As for the Meklar, +25% prod, -50% food consumption and -25% population growth.


Edited by Vahouth, 26 March 2016 - 12:05 AM.


11171971 #11 Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:45 AM

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View PostVahouth, on 26 March 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

 

 

My suggestions exactly. In this thread http://forum.mastero...r-race-variety/  I gave the Klackon an umbreakable morale and slower assimilation rates to imitate unification. As for the Meklar, +25% prod, -50% food consumption and -25% population growth.

 

Yeah after playing some more I think unless cybernetic/uncreative are implemented Klackon and Meklar both need nerfs to science or pop growth like you're proposing. Right now they are easily creaming the military races.

 

I would prefer cybernetic back though as .5 food/.5 production per pop with excess food contributing to population growth but starvation deducting from food stores either the missing food or production whichever is more negative. 

 

 



Ilserrad #12 Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:30 PM

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Based on their in game lore, I think a good balance for the Meklar would be a flat Morale penalty.

Vahouth #13 Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:34 PM

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View PostIlserrad, on 26 March 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

Based on their in game lore, I think a good balance for the Meklar would be a flat Morale penalty.

Why?



Ilserrad #14 Posted 27 March 2016 - 04:36 AM

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The Meklar are described as a roiling sea of intelligences floating around a shared network with little rhyme or reason. The Overseer is essentially a prototype attempt to give them some sense of direction.

It would make sense to reflect that erratic nature in game by making them prone to not doing their assigned job, which would be reflected mechanically by a penalty to morale.

 

Game wise, it would curtail their early rush potential by forcing the player to either focus on early infrastructure with new colonies or cut back taxes and skirt the line of positive cash flow. But it wouldn't hamper their long game once later computer tech gives them morale buildings which would otherwise be redundant.



Vahouth #15 Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:34 AM

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But Erratic is a diplomatic trait and the ability to keep treaties in a sense, nothing to do with morale.

 



Ilserrad #16 Posted 27 March 2016 - 01:32 PM

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Yes, but they justify it in game in a way that heavily implies a lack of organization and focus. Thus morale.

Vahouth #17 Posted 27 March 2016 - 03:20 PM

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I never saw a lack in organization or focus. If anything, the latest story about them hinted to the exact opposite. They are after all machines, why would they go on a strike?


kipwheeler #18 Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:19 AM

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View Post11171971, on 26 March 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

 

Yeah after playing some more I think unless cybernetic/uncreative are implemented Klackon and Meklar both need nerfs to science or pop growth like you're proposing. Right now they are easily creaming the military races.

 

 

 

This^.  If I lose a game on hard difficulty or higher right now, it's because Klackon or Meklar were on the far side of the galaxy and managed to eat up so much territory by the time I encounter them, they have a *huge* numbers advantage when our fleets finally duke it out. I wouldn't want them nerfed too much (because they are a great challenge), but they are by far the most effective AI enemies to fight right now, leagues ahead of other competitors. The race that I think need a buff would be the Psilons, but maybe I'm just not playing to their research strengths well enough.



pladeira #19 Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:03 AM

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View Postkipwheeler, on 06 April 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

This^.  If I lose a game on hard difficulty or higher right now, it's because Klackon or Meklar were on the far side of the galaxy and managed to eat up so much territory by the time I encounter them, they have a *huge* numbers advantage when our fleets finally duke it out. I wouldn't want them nerfed too much (because they are a great challenge), but they are by far the most effective AI enemies to fight right now, leagues ahead of other competitors. The race that I think need a buff would be the Psilons, but maybe I'm just not playing to their research strengths well enough.

 

I noticed that too. I wished we ahd a mod for that.

 

(sorry for the bump, but it was needed).


Edited by pladeira, 24 April 2017 - 12:03 AM.


Spud_Dastardly #20 Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:21 AM

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We do have a mod for that. Give 5X a try sometime. It rebalances all of the races.

Get 5X - The Ultimate Balance Mod on Steam or on Nexus Mods!

 






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