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What to do with the Mrrshan?


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Poll: How should Mrrshan be? (45 members have cast votes)

How should Mrrshan be?

  1. Leave them as they are (Uber Planet, 50% Ground Combat, Barracks) (1 vote [2.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  2. Give them Beam Attack (Uber Planet, 50% Beam Attack) (28 votes [56.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.00%

  3. Give them better Ships/Elite Crews (Uber Planet, +25% Beam Attack, +25% Beam Defense) (16 votes [32.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  4. Other (Specify in Comment) (5 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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RuNeZz #41 Posted 25 July 2016 - 05:56 PM

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This thread deserves more time.

Prrsha #42 Posted 27 July 2016 - 10:44 AM

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It does given in order to create a Mrrshan faithful to the lore of the game, I have to design one with the custom race feature.  If I do, custom races get less points which puts me at a disadvantage against other players (or AI) using Vanilla races.  It would be nice just to choose a +50% beam attack Mrrshan with it's other traits (minus the ground ones) in addition.  It also would be great if the AI used their strengths to dominate the players.  Eg,  Bulrathi sending tons of military transports to your planet (and focusing on ground tech).  Mrrshan focusing on fleet strength (as it does now) but with some actual space combat bonuses.

Mithlas #43 Posted 30 July 2016 - 05:27 AM

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View PostLemonymous, on 03 July 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

Well, I really think every race should have traits that synergize with each other, without penalties that diminishes other bonuses they have. (No anti-synergies like Psilon's research bonus and small home world)

 

So with the cats having +50% beam weapons (this is an obvious one), ships become better. MoO2's warlord enhanced this even further by giving them more ships compared to other races. I think this is a nice synergy.

 

I say scrap the uber planet and just give them +50% beam and more ships or/or cheaper ships.

I don't have a problem with everyone having an uber planet, but it's really the other traits that seem to define a race.

 

View Postfourteenfour, on 21 July 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Terrans are boring because they are just a cut and paste travesty. WG didn't even expend the time and energy to give them unique ships, instead they just palette shifted them. Worse their story is straight silly rip off of either Wrath of Khan, The Terran Empire of TOS where we had Spock with a beard, or Nietzscheans from Andromeda. They should have been led by a woman with a male science advisor, they should have been the Elerians or similar. (actually I would not mind them as Andromeda's Nietzscheans)

Terrans aren't nearly that bad, but I think with all the other races that they're not really necessary unless we introduce breakaway factions for all of the races (most likely as later expansion content). If they're fanatic-builder-conquerers, +25% production and -10% ship cost would be enough without needing new combat bonuses.

 

View PostRuNeZz, on 21 July 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Terran:

-Less Growth

-More Production

-More Research

-Repulsive (Arrogant superior Attitude)

-Maybe Faster Ships in combat/ Or militarist / some Sort of tech advantage

-More Beam Defense +50

 

Leave War To the MrrShan.

There are different ways to handle a militant combative race, even if we're leaving the focus in space. +50% beam attack and -10% ship cost [60] increases readiness and targeting for one. Another could have +25% attack, +25% defense, and auto repair or combat speed for balanced combat training.

 

View PostArent11, on 22 July 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Sounds good. The only objection would be that I can't connect the lore of the Terrans to High G world. I also would prefer the diplomacy disadvantage. So, I would (1) lower the growth penalty (2) add a small diplomacy penalty & (3) remove the high g trait. Maybe also change +50% beam defense to +25%/+25% beam attack/defense (Since 50% beam defense is already "taken" by Alkari, the best pilots in the galaxy)

 

I can't connect a food penalty to the lore, the credits penalty might be ok, you could argue that the Mrrshan have a fractionated feudal government.

The game hasn't been released yet, we're still in transition and if they're changed to have a food penalty (traditional slow birth rate?) I would have no problem with that.

 

As long as they're balanced, I don't mind the vanilla races. It's when some are better than others that I shake my head...though with some abilities being valued more than I think they're worth (starting tech being the same as a game-long boost to all research? Not even close to the same value even in small maps).



Prrsha #44 Posted 30 July 2016 - 11:39 PM

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It's an easy fix.  Keep their biome, just add a +50% beam attack, -20% ship build speed, toss in a command point bonus.  Poof there you have it.  If you add up the trait points that would leave them in the middle of the pack.  Heck even on the custom race screen (a place where races have LESS points then Vanilla races by dev design choice) I can design a Mrrshan with +50 beam attack, -20% ship build and grassland biome.  That's 10 points.  The command point boost would make them equal with the other races.  There is no need to break a formula that worked in the past.


 

My worries are that they have made up their mind on racial traits now and are going to release them as is.  If that is so, expect mismatched multiplayer battles and a game you can toss in the circular bin.



Prrsha #45 Posted 31 July 2016 - 07:35 PM

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View PostEmP64213, on 31 July 2016 - 04:54 AM, said:

Still beating that bush :)? Download ILSpy (perfectly legal free tool, used regularely by C# devs), load game DLLs in it and tell them exactly which line to change.

 

My thoughts are most players won't even bother to go that route or even agree on a set rule standard for races.  That makes for a poor release where players are left shaking their heads over a broken imbalanced game.  This issue should (and rightly so) be fixed by the developers not the modding community (unless they plan to pay the modders for their work and make their patches official).

Prrsha #46 Posted 03 August 2016 - 05:31 PM

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In Moo1, I use tech like Gatling Lasers off the start to give me an edge (or any multi-fire weapon) due to their accuracy modifier.  Later I get the Repulsor Beam and pair it with all Heavy Weapons to attack the enemy at a distance since so I can once again push my trait bonus.  The last tech I get is High Energy Focus (I think that is the one) where it allows you to fire about 3 squares away at an enemy.  At that range you tend to grossly overpower your enemies damage due to the range modifiers.


 

For Moo2, I use no range dissipation guns like mass drivers and gauss cannons as they will do excellent damage at far range.  I also try to focus on weapons that have auto-fire features to them (heavy mount of course).  This gives me 2 more attacks per weapon at a penalty of -20%.  However with Mrrshan's +50% bonus this more then cancels it out.


 

I was hoping to have the same playstyle with cats in this MOO (as many others have voiced) but it seems they are lost in development hell... being not really good at anything (only guarding their own worlds against ground invasions).  It is odd however because the AI in this MOO tends to focus on large fleets instead of large numbers of troop transports.  Heck, I've yet to see a Mrrshan AI even make a grassland Biome.  They just destroy themselves by overproducing ships (which they have no bonus to using) and they just then sit there and turtle up.


 

I sent a list of how the races are currently working to my co-worker (he wanted a list of what each races do and don't for an upcoming review).  Since General Direction said that in order to change a race it involves a complex process of speaking to the creative designer (I am guessing Keeling?) and tons of time.  I don't in turn expect to see any changes to the races anytime soon so I green lighted my data and sent it off for review.  I did focus on the four races that needed work like the Mrrshan, Silicoid, Melkar and Sakkra.  Maybe the resulting review may pressure the "higher-ups" to (I hope) extend the release date to fix the critical issues plaguing the game (like spying, pollution, etc).  If anything the part regarding the races and how they have evolved (and quotes of discontent people have posted in this forum) may bring attention to the problem before release.  The review will be out at the end of this month if all goes well.  Expect a link later.  It should be a good read.  :3



Redshirt4Life #47 Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:37 PM

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MOO1 Mrrshans were the weakest race. They were good at blitzing early game, but the Alkari racial bonus was better. Mrrshans are capable, but they need to gain an advantage early game through their military and thats not easy against an AI that blatantly cheats. By mid game their bonus is pretty meaningless as any economy race would prevail through numbers or tech.

Prrsha #48 Posted 05 August 2016 - 10:42 AM

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View PostRedshirt4Life, on 04 August 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

MOO1 Mrrshans were the weakest race. They were good at blitzing early game, but the Alkari racial bonus was better. Mrrshans are capable, but they need to gain an advantage early game through their military and thats not easy against an AI that blatantly cheats. By mid game their bonus is pretty meaningless as any economy race would prevail through numbers or tech.

 

Yes, in moo1, that is mostly the case if you play them with just a standard expand, defend and then research strategy.  However if you keep up your spying (focus on computer technology and steal that field first) while you use your weapon tech research bonus to pass the AI in weapon tech (and minimize the size of your weapons so you can place many weapons on a single ship), you can hold your own against any opponent on any difficulty.  It all comes down to how you design your ships (Repulsor beams and Warp Dissipator combined with High Energy Focus), how you manipulate your AI opponents to fight themselves and manage your spy network to keep up your production technology.  Your worst foe in Moo1 as Mrrshan are the Melkar as they have great computer technology (so they can defend well against your spies) and have a large production bonus.
 

Early in the game, yes it is best to attack your neighbor if the victory will seem quick.  Your accuracy will matter the most early on and you will most likely have the best weapon technology... however, you mustn't take too long during the war or you will lose too much resources fighting it and the other AI opponents will quickly out-tech you.  I can't stress how beneficial High Energy Focus combined with Warp Dissipators and heavy weapons are.  You can attack your enemies at 3-4 space range and immobilize their ships so they have to fire back at that range.  If they do not have that technology themselves on their ships, they can only fire 1 space from their ship.  Their only form of attack then are missiles or torpedoes (which can be countered easily with many techs in the game).



Archont4000 #49 Posted 05 August 2016 - 05:44 PM

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Warp dissipator prevents enemy ships from fleeing so you effectively destroy their fleets in every battle.
HEF just allows you to immobilize them quicker

Prrsha #50 Posted 06 August 2016 - 01:07 AM

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View PostArchont4000, on 05 August 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

Warp dissipator prevents enemy ships from fleeing so you effectively destroy their fleets in every battle.
HEF just allows you to immobilize them quicker

 

Not in Master of Orion 1.  That's MOO2.

Prrsha #51 Posted 06 August 2016 - 01:11 AM

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View PostEmP64213, on 05 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

High energy focus boosts warp dissipator? Learn something new every day :). Does it boost range of other special equipment "attacks"?

 

No HEF doesn't boost the range of the warp dissipator.  You just use it in conjunction with HEF.  Each shot of the warp dissipator reduces a stack of ships movement to 0-2 (I think that is the number).  If you use it enough times, the ships are immobile.  You can then move out of the range of their guns and just shoot them over and over again with no risk to getting shot back by their ships.  Even before it reduces their movement to 0, it slows them down a lot, allowing you to out maneuver them and attack them at range without the danger of their guns hitting you.

Redshirt4Life #52 Posted 06 August 2016 - 11:29 PM

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View PostPrrsha, on 05 August 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

 

Yes, in moo1, that is mostly the case if you play them with just a standard expand, defend and then research strategy.  However if you keep up your spying (focus on computer technology and steal that field first) while you use your weapon tech research bonus to pass the AI in weapon tech (and minimize the size of your weapons so you can place many weapons on a single ship), you can hold your own against any opponent on any difficulty.  It all comes down to how you design your ships (Repulsor beams and Warp Dissipator combined with High Energy Focus), how you manipulate your AI opponents to fight themselves and manage your spy network to keep up your production technology.  Your worst foe in Moo1 as Mrrshan are the Melkar as they have great computer technology (so they can defend well against your spies) and have a large production bonus.
 

Early in the game, yes it is best to attack your neighbor if the victory will seem quick.  Your accuracy will matter the most early on and you will most likely have the best weapon technology... however, you mustn't take too long during the war or you will lose too much resources fighting it and the other AI opponents will quickly out-tech you.  I can't stress how beneficial High Energy Focus combined with Warp Dissipators and heavy weapons are.  You can attack your enemies at 3-4 space range and immobilize their ships so they have to fire back at that range.  If they do not have that technology themselves on their ships, they can only fire 1 space from their ship.  Their only form of attack then are missiles or torpedoes (which can be countered easily with many techs in the game).

 

Oh forgot to mention that they also had the worst diplomacy penalties of any race besides the Darloks. They have two mortal enemies, the Alkari and the Sakkra. The Sakkra are gonna be the big problem because their high population gives them a big early game production boost and their fast expansion will put them at odds with the Mrrshan sooner rather then later. I would certainly argue that its the Sakkra who are the biggest problem due to this diplomacy penalty. Like the Meklar, the Sakkra too are considered a industrious race, since population increases production.

The Mrrshan weapon miniaturization is countered by their poor construction tech, which directly influences how many modules a ship can hold. Considering both, the poor construction leaves them worse off as the weapon miniaturization only influences, well, weapons. 

Every race is certainly playable in MOO1, but every race can pull off the above strategy much more effectively then the Mrrshan. That said, your strategy is the best way to emphasize their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. If the Mrrshans can keep up with computer tech, they can keep up their racial bonus (their attack advantage equals 4 levels of battle computer tech). The Alkari, at least, have some non-combat utility out of their propulsion tech and propulsion directly adds to their racial bonus, while the Mrrshans must focus on a tech they are only average at to maintain their own.

Edited by Redshirt4Life, 06 August 2016 - 11:31 PM.


diehardtwinsfan #53 Posted 07 August 2016 - 11:32 PM

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I think they should have more of the original trait to be honest, and Prrsha is obviously pretty passionate about that, so I'll generally side with him... personally, I hate the whole woman/cat stereotype thing in the current iterations...

Mithlas #54 Posted 09 August 2016 - 02:44 AM

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I think it gives faint personality to what otherwise can end up a column of numbers in a spreadsheet in other 4Xs. It's probably based more on being able to easily tolerate the voice acting, which is probably up to personal taste and will vary for everyone.

 

As there are several weapon types, perhaps a +25% accuracy with kinetic as well as energy might help separate them from the more defensive Alkari (who maybe should just have a +15% evasion from all damage instead of just energy).

 

Pretty much all AI act about the same (especially on high difficulties: cheat to ignore costs and field fleets bigger than their planets or tech should be able to support, and go to war with everybody around). Actually, the Mrrshan seem like the only ones who actually should be stirring up small wars with everybody around them (though I'd think they should also be open to accepting peace agreements...gives them time to rally and decide if they actually dislike the race they had a fight with). Races like the Silicoid and Meklar should be more inclined to isolationism, "we don't care if you're out there as long as you don't bother us", though this drifts into a tangent. What about the Bulrathi? They are highly expansionistic and would seem to therefore have a natural dislike for the Mrrshan.



Prrsha #55 Posted 09 August 2016 - 05:48 AM

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View PostMithlas, on 08 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

I think it gives faint personality to what otherwise can end up a column of numbers in a spreadsheet in other 4Xs. It's probably based more on being able to easily tolerate the voice acting, which is probably up to personal taste and will vary for everyone.

 

As there are several weapon types, perhaps a +25% accuracy with kinetic as well as energy might help separate them from the more defensive Alkari (who maybe should just have a +15% evasion from all damage instead of just energy).

 

Pretty much all AI act about the same (especially on high difficulties: cheat to ignore costs and field fleets bigger than their planets or tech should be able to support, and go to war with everybody around). Actually, the Mrrshan seem like the only ones who actually should be stirring up small wars with everybody around them (though I'd think they should also be open to accepting peace agreements...gives them time to rally and decide if they actually dislike the race they had a fight with). Races like the Silicoid and Meklar should be more inclined to isolationism, "we don't care if you're out there as long as you don't bother us", though this drifts into a tangent. What about the Bulrathi? They are highly expansionistic and would seem to therefore have a natural dislike for the Mrrshan.

 

There is no need to give them +25%.  The Terrans get that and more some.  They need something to stand apart from other races.  +50% bonus to accuracy across the board with all "beam weapons" would do that.  It is the easiest to code and it has worked fine in the past MOOs.  If what you are saying is that you wish the Mrrshan to be more aggressive, then they need better stats to do so.  So far the AI doesn't design troop transports so their marine bonuses are useless.  Their beam attack would help them against the current "worsen diplomacy" disability they are given now.  At least the massive fleets they tend to spam would be a tad more deadly instead of just fodder.  -20% Ship cost might make them recover from wars quicker as well.


 

My personal opinion (and not of my fellow staff members in any way... this is just me) is that there is far too many things that need fixing in the game right now.  Unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat in EA7 (or make several EAs and extend their deadline), this product is dead in the water.  Yes, modders may make it tolerable in the future (much like Moo3) but at the end of the day, the IP will be in shambles.

 



plasmacannontime #56 Posted 09 August 2016 - 05:29 PM

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Agreed. I like your assessment of the Mrrshans Prrsha.

I hope they will return to the roots of Mrrshans having +50 Beam Attack.

That IS what symbolizes them to me.

The Alkari had +50 Beam Defense. Those two could be at war forever because of that balance. Against others, they had an advantage.

Each race should be unique. So players can play that style and get a feel for how it works best.

That way, when they create their own race, they can draw upon those experiences to determine what they want to keep in their new race.

 

It's funny, after readying your style of play for the Mrrshans, I realized that I play them completely different. Which is good, variety and all.

Since, I know my Mrrshans gunners can hit with beam weapons from the beginning, I focused on the other technologies in the tech tree, Research Lab, Neural Scanner, Planetary Supercomputer and so on. I didn't upgrade their beam attack computers until Molelectronic's +125. I would use mostly missile ships until I could blast away with Plasmacannons and that new computer. Occasionally with Heavy Graviton beams.

 

Without the high bonus to beam attack, neither strategy is workable. :( 
Your's could mostly, because of more investment on attack computers earlier on. However, early rushes, requiring more computer techs, is counterintuitive.
I hope they upgrade the bonus back to the full +50 soon.

 

 


MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, MOO4 trending downward, getting older waiting for a MOO5 (a modern version of mostly MOO2).

plasmacannontime #57 Posted 10 August 2016 - 09:17 PM

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View PostEmP64213, on 10 August 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

 

Practically all races have to skip computers in order to pick research buildings and since pretty much everybody try to get planetary supercomputer as soon as possible. I assume Prrsha plays that way too. My main early source of beam attack is battle scanner and the great thing about Prrsha's style is not going that route. Instead he/she goes with other tech field which has kind of shield and spear balance.chance where we start off with Autofire mass drivers. OMG This stupid forum keeps glitching. Now it puts my words up in you text box.

s  modn​Yes. There is even one ra

 

Edited, because the forum is being stupid again and I don't feel like erasing what I wrote.

 

Yes. There is even one random chance where we start off with Autofire mass drivers and Class 3 Shields​.
If Mrrshans get that start, it's game over for her closest foes. :)


Edited by plasmacannontime, 10 August 2016 - 09:21 PM.

MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, MOO4 trending downward, getting older waiting for a MOO5 (a modern version of mostly MOO2).

Omega_Weapon #58 Posted 11 August 2016 - 12:18 AM

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View Postplasmacannontime, on 10 August 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

s  modn​Yes. There is even one ra

 

Edited, because the forum is being stupid again and I don't feel like erasing what I wrote.

 

​That happens to you too? Lol, I though I was the only one and that my computer was to blame. Good to know. 

plasmacannontime #59 Posted 11 August 2016 - 02:22 PM

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I don't know what I like the least, The forum glitches, The limited number of "Likes" per day, or the way MOO4 turned out. :(

I think I put up with the first two, to complain about the 3rd.

So many disappointment here.

This site is my first experience at a Wargaming site. I hope all of their forums aren't this bad.


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Prrsha #60 Posted 13 August 2016 - 01:05 AM

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With the game coming out at the end of this month, I know what to recommend to my fellow gamers.


 

The game is riddled with bugs and typos.  You failed to balance the races and keep them in line with their predecessors.  This could have been a simple fix for the development staff.  Now you have a game that is imbalanced and will fall flat in multiplayer and in singleplayer.  Time and money was wasted on yet another cash grab.  Hopefully fellow journalists will bring out reality of the state of the game and inform players before they make an ill advised purchased based solely on AAA hype.  Mr. Keeling last statement regarding sales should be the mantra on why this game was made.  It wasn't made for you, it was made for a playerbase that did not include the fans of the game.  It is relying on (according to Keeling) new players who have no experiences with previous Master of Orion games.  That whole "We are going back to the roots of Master of Orion 1" promo videos were a lie.  Nice try NGD, the chips were stacked against you with the time frame you were given to fix this game.  You did well with damage control but in the end I don't see that it will matter much.  I feel sorry for all the little guys involved in this game (programmers, artists, and even forum moderators).  It was a hill that no one could climb and the director of MOO cts designed a sheer wall for you.






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