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Mrrshan Poll removed?

Mrrshan race balance

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Prrsha #1 Posted 27 August 2016 - 11:25 PM

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I noticed that the Poll regarding the Mrrshan's broken attributes is missing from the forum, or maybe I am not seeing it?


 

So far there has been NO response for 2 months regarding incorrect statics of the Mrrshan.  Once again, they are superior gunners, NOT ground combat grunts (like Bulrathi should be).  They have been in all MOOs as masters of space combat having a +50% beam attack. (It even lists them as such on your home page, which is false advertising).   I hope this oversight is at least sometime acknowledged but the devs on what they plan to do with them.



Lemonymous #2 Posted 28 August 2016 - 03:01 AM

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This one?

 

I think that battle (and many others) was lost a long time ago. How did your review end up by the way?



Laegad #3 Posted 28 August 2016 - 10:00 AM

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In this forum, post can go down very quickly.

Keep the URL of thread or messages you want go back later...

Prrsha #4 Posted 29 August 2016 - 08:09 PM

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View PostLemonymous, on 27 August 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

This one?

 

I think that battle (and many others) was lost a long time ago. How did your review end up by the way?

 

I submitted my material to my editor.


 

On another note, unlike other the other news sites, rock, paper, shotgun is taking time to review the game in its entirety.  So far there is just an announcement of the game's release here: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/27/blastoff-master-of-orion-leaves-early-access/


 

Any thoughts or comments you have you can email to jl.famularo@gmail.com


 

 

My personal opinion still stands however, the Mrrshan should be expert gunners (+50% beam attack) like in the previous titles but my opinion is just that, an opinion.  I wanted to see if the forum agreed, and the results so far seem to tell the tale.  I am perplexed however why the developers have made no mention if this oversight is intentional or not.  I wanted to show my editor this, as an example of how the developers communicate and respond to the people of the forum in general.  Race balance is something that has been laid out really well by the community is an easy example to cite.  I could not locate the poll even with a search of it, so thank you for finding it for me!



GeneralDirection #5 Posted 29 August 2016 - 08:48 PM

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View PostPrrsha, on 29 August 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

 

I submitted my material to my editor.


 

On another note, unlike other the other news sites, rock, paper, shotgun is taking time to review the game in its entirety.  So far there is just an announcement of the game's release here: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/27/blastoff-master-of-orion-leaves-early-access/


 

Any thoughts or comments you have you can email to jl.famularo@gmail.com


 

 

My personal opinion still stands however, the Mrrshan should be expert gunners (+50% beam attack) like in the previous titles but my opinion is just that, an opinion.  I wanted to see if the forum agreed, and the results so far seem to tell the tale.  I am perplexed however why the developers have made no mention if this oversight is intentional or not.  I wanted to show my editor this, as an example of how the developers communicate and respond to the people of the forum in general.  Race balance is something that has been laid out really well by the community is an easy example to cite.  I could not locate the poll even with a search of it, so thank you for finding it for me!

 

The Mrrshan design is intentional, but the point of reference from the older games is a valid one. I am honestly not sure how much (if at all) they will change for the time being. There are two sides to the argument on that topic, one being that there are already a few races that have ship strengths, but in the traditional Mrrshan lore they were very good gunners.

 

I think this is probably compounded by the fact that ground combat is not a robust feature. Would this be as much of an issue if it were? That's a genuine question--I'm curious how much of it is related to staying true to lore, and how much is related to how it "feels" while playing them. Ship strengths are easier to notice, and other than seeing more marines on your planets, there's not a ton of visual feedback on how great your ground combatants are.



Vahouth #6 Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:28 PM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 29 August 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:

 

The Mrrshan design is intentional, but the point of reference from the older games is a valid one. I am honestly not sure how much (if at all) they will change for the time being. There are two sides to the argument on that topic, one being that there are already a few races that have ship strengths, but in the traditional Mrrshan lore they were very good gunners.

 

I think this is probably compounded by the fact that ground combat is not a robust feature. Would this be as much of an issue if it were? That's a genuine question--I'm curious how much of it is related to staying true to lore, and how much is related to how it "feels" while playing them. Ship strengths are easier to notice, and other than seeing more marines on your planets, there's not a ton of visual feedback on how great your ground combatants are.

 

This is what I find confusing. In both of the previous games, each race exploits a certain aspect/strength of the mechanics of the game, so we had the technologists, the expansionists, the best pilots, the best gunners, the best ground combat grunts etc.

With the current changes for the Mrrshan this is no longer the case as 2 of the races compete for the same thing: Who's best in ground combat.  I cannot understand why this is happening...

On top of that, recently the Mrrshan gained a disposition bonus with all races! Why? What for? This is something entirely uncalled for, something that completely disregards their tense relations with the Alkari.

 

In another thread I gave my feedback on how this could be fixed for these 2 races, but also added some more benefits for different biome or gravity types. For example here is my version of the Mrrshan that still enjoy some ground combat bonuses but also excel in space combat:

Block Quote

 

MRRSHAN

Militarists (NEW DESCRIPTION+10% Ground Combat, +10% command points, +10% Morale

Plains Dweller: Homeworld Type Arid, Uber Planet Grassland (ADDED DESCRIPTION: +10% Ground Combat Rating in Arid/Grassland planets, +10% food in Grassland.)

Warlord (NEW DESCRIPTION+50% Beam Attack, +10% Command Points.

Diplomacy: Worsen Disposition with Alkari  -NEW TRAIT-

 

 

And here are the Bulrathi with an High-G bonus that when added with their own 50%, it makes them the indisputable leaders of ground combat, especially in their turf:

Block Quote

 

BULRATHI

Ecologists: Starting tech Biology, Pollution reduction 25%.

Homeworld Size: Large.

Gravity Tolerance: High Gravity (ADDED DESCRIPTION : -25% Ground Combat in Low-G, +25% Ground Combat in High-G) 

Ground Combat Rating: +50%.

 

 


Edited by Vahouth, 29 August 2016 - 11:34 PM.


Prrsha #7 Posted 30 August 2016 - 09:53 PM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 29 August 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

The Mrrshan design is intentional, but the point of reference from the older games is a valid one. I am honestly not sure how much (if at all) they will change for the time being. There are two sides to the argument on that topic, one being that there are already a few races that have ship strengths, but in the traditional Mrrshan lore they were very good gunners.

 

I think this is probably compounded by the fact that ground combat is not a robust feature. Would this be as much of an issue if it were? That's a genuine question--I'm curious how much of it is related to staying true to lore, and how much is related to how it "feels" while playing them. Ship strengths are easier to notice, and other than seeing more marines on your planets, there's not a ton of visual feedback on how great your ground combatants are.

 

I guess what my point is, as well as most members of the forum, are that the Mrrshan have been in previous games, excellent space combat gunners, not ground combatants.  The ground bonuses all were designed to be the Bulrathi's domain.  Now the Mrrshan are sort of in limbo, not really fitting into their old role.  If you sat down Steve Barcia to the table, he'd tell you as much.  I think you just got their roles mixed up somehow and there might be lack of communication with the design team on how they historically worked.  If you played Master of Orion 1 or 2 as the Mrrshan, this should be evident as does reading either manual.


 

I see the design team tried to recreate Master of Orion at heart but the Mrrshan are one of the examples where the previous game's vision doesn't match the current one.  This point (among others) is something readers should be aware about, especially when the very webpage that describes them (written by NGD) and tags them under the role of space combatants with a high gunnery skill.  People who were fans of the previous titles and of their favorite race (Mrrshan) should be warned that they are no longer designed in the same in spirit before they toss down their money on something they expected.  It is something that is review worthy in my opinion and a topic worth discussing.  I was just wondering if this was an oversight or not.


 

In response to your question about the "feel" of playing them, I'd have to say they are nothing like I expected them to be and they have really poor traits compared to other races.  I find them to be one of the hardest races (besides Sakkra) to play effectively with.  They feel crippled when playing them and their bonuses only work for ground defense when in practice.  Ground combat was nothing that Mrrshan were historically good at.  They were the unchallenged masters of assault power in space combat.  In Master of Orion 2 the "Warlord" trait gave them extra Command Points for Fleets and extra Experience for space ship crews (in space combat).  That was their role and I feel that many other players who played other MOO games would expect as much.


 

On another note, the AI plays the Mrrshan oddly.  They amass huge fleets and get stuck in a few systems with a huge aggressive fleet with no traits to help them.  They fall quickly to pirates and other foes.  If you designed them as ground combatants, then their AI should reflect that.  Currently the AI even seems to think they should play the Mrrshan as if they had their traits of old.  I once again don't know if this was an oversight or intentional.  Was the AI designed for them in the early stages to be gunners and warlords with a vast fleet (and traits) to command them; then their traits got mixed up somehow when the Terran were released?  Or does the AI not know how to handle ground combat defensively?  That's all the Mrrshan have really... defensive ground combat traits.  Having more marines doesn't equate to more troop transports for assault when the AI never uses them.  Once again this matters little as this is the role the Bulrathi were designed to fit into.  My hope is that the entire issue was a giant mistake from lack of communication.  If not, then you have tossed the Mrrshan out of their historical role while all of the other races adhere to them.  It's not really fair to those who enjoyed playing that race and it is not fair to the franchise.



Vahouth #8 Posted 30 August 2016 - 10:39 PM

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Imagine having the Alkari compete the Psilons for the title of the best researcher.

That's how I see it. :mellow:


Edited by Vahouth, 30 August 2016 - 10:40 PM.


MasterOfOrionConquerTheS #9 Posted 30 August 2016 - 11:40 PM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 29 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

The Mrrshan design is intentional, but the point of reference from the older games is a valid one. I am honestly not sure how much (if at all) they will change for the time being. There are two sides to the argument on that topic, one being that there are already a few races that have ship strengths, but in the traditional Mrrshan lore they were very good gunners.

 

I think this is probably compounded by the fact that ground combat is not a robust feature. Would this be as much of an issue if it were? That's a genuine question--I'm curious how much of it is related to staying true to lore, and how much is related to how it "feels" while playing them. Ship strengths are easier to notice, and other than seeing more marines on your planets, there's not a ton of visual feedback on how great your ground combatants are.

 

Mrrshans were always good gunners, so i think that's what most people think they should feel like.

They were always described as having good hunting reflexes and such. 

I wouldn't mind if they were both good gunners and ground fighters, but i do miss the gunnery part. 

 

I've been switching my strategy from genocide to invasion, as it is quite more beneficial on a higher strategy level (Not just crush your enemy but come on top compared to other races by getting the defeated into your empire) but really i wouldn't see much gain from getting a ground combat bonus at all. 

 

First, it's just not too much fun to watch it auto-resolve. I do like that they are integrated into bombardment menu, but If there was some sort of animation to showcase ground combat and some sort of mechanic that made it an appealing part of the game, i guess it could be a greater selling point. As it is now Marines aren't appealing.

I don't think anything elaborate is needed, maybe just static marine icons for all races shooting lasers and guns with some minor sound effects would be enough.

 

My ideal animation would be the auto-resolve animation in combats from Age of Wonders I. It was so simple yet amazingly done. Of course it would be much simplier with only 4 types of units here. 

 

Something like this :  http://www.infinitel...8&p=n#/871;911 

 

 i mean it takes about 3 turns to get a transport, which brings 4 marines, and you can typically take most planets with two. You can also bombard enemy marines, so it's just a matter of how much loot you want to get when conquering enemy planets. 

 

 

Even if enemy marines are butcher-killers-from-hell, you can still play with bombardment, biologicals and even bombard to dust if you so feel like it. Or just wait a few turns and bring overwhelming numbers. 

 

Also it's not like having a ton of marines in your colony makes you feel any safer, as your colony is still subject to be annihilated. Of course it can prevent your enemy from getting the colony with the factories intact so it takes the spoils from them, but it doesn't help you defend what's yours. 

 

Ground combat needs some sort of animation, and also needs to be superior to Moo2 ground combat, because Moo2's ground combat suffered the same problems. You could have all these really cool ground units with lots of bonuses and still they could be disintegrated from orbit or just overwhelmed by enemy marines. 

 

If there was some chance to add Moo1 mechanics where transports could sneak past defenses and still invade -even tough suffering heavy losses from missile bases as they did so- it could be interesting. fleets could block all transports tough.  Maybe allow transports to invade if they get to some section of the tactical combat map ? Also some code to decide how many transports sneak past if auto-resolve . That could be quite cool and make Bulrathi and ground combat races more appealing. 

 

Transports are already represented on the tactical combat map, so there could be some mechanic to get them to have something to do in it.  It'd be fun having to chase down all enemy transports to prevent them from jumping into the atmosphere, adding some more tactical elements. Also, there could be tech upgrades that make your transports bring 1 tank or battloid each along with marines. 


Edited by MasterOfOrionConquerTheS, 31 August 2016 - 12:17 AM.


Prrsha #10 Posted 02 September 2016 - 08:56 PM

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EmP64213 had this to say in the poll thread,


 

Quote

The fact that Terran Khanate is available only by paying extra cash might be the reason why Mrrshans had to be changed. We will have to convince them to change Khanate before expecting getting Mrrshans back to their role.


 

I have wondered this from day one and made a remark on it on the poll thread here: http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.php?/topic/1715-what-to-do-with-the-mrrshan/page__st__60


 

Keep the votes coming.  So far they seem overwhelming.  I hope someday to see someone from the design team explain why the Mrrshans were delegated to ground combat when the Bulrathi are already in that role.  They are the only original MOO race to be stripped of their conceptual role.



XeeleeNightfighter #11 Posted 04 September 2016 - 12:36 PM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 29 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

The Mrrshan design is intentional, but the point of reference from the older games is a valid one. I am honestly not sure how much (if at all) they will change for the time being. There are two sides to the argument on that topic, one being that there are already a few races that have ship strengths, but in the traditional Mrrshan lore they were very good gunners.

 

I think this is probably compounded by the fact that ground combat is not a robust feature. Would this be as much of an issue if it were? That's a genuine question--I'm curious how much of it is related to staying true to lore, and how much is related to how it "feels" while playing them. Ship strengths are easier to notice, and other than seeing more marines on your planets, there's not a ton of visual feedback on how great your ground combatants are.

 

I played Moo1 and Moo2 almost exclusively as Mrrshan. They are by far my favorite race. To me the Mrrshan of CtS just feel plain wrong and I am very dissappointed.

 

The Mrrshan are not supposed to be great at ground combat, they are supposed to be superior at space combat. That's the lore and that's the way they are meant to be played.

 

The Moo2 manual says

 The Mrrshan look as though they've evolved from cat-like predators because they have. This genetic heritage has left them with keen senses and fast reflexes, which add 50% to their chances of hitting in ship-to-ship combat.

 

 



Vahouth #12 Posted 04 September 2016 - 12:48 PM

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View PostXeeleeNightfighter, on 04 September 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

 

I played Moo1 and Moo2 almost exclusively as Mrrshan. They are by far my favorite race. To me the Mrrshan of CtS just feel plain wrong and I am very dissappointed.

 

The Mrrshan are not supposed to be great at ground combat, they are supposed to be superior at space combat. That's the lore and that's the way they are meant to be played.

 

 

The current Mrrshan don't even fit their MoOCtS description lol

Take a look: http://masteroforion...paign=moo-forum

Block Quote

 

The Mrrshan are some of the deadliest gunners in the universe and they will use those gifts against any who try to block their path.

 

 


Edited by Vahouth, 04 September 2016 - 12:49 PM.


Summon3r #13 Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:02 PM

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Shocking that this is even a topic of conversation. Would be nice to see this rectified asap WG



Prrsha #14 Posted 16 September 2016 - 01:42 AM

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Is there news of any corrections regarding the problems with the Sakkra, Silicoid, Mrrshan and Melkar races yet?


 

I'd like to see a concrete explanation from the design team of why the Mrrshans have broken ranks with their lore unlike the other races.  This is really inexcusable for no response regarding this for over 4 months.  The game is out, there is nothing that needs to be hidden due to "hype" reasons.  Can you please explain why nothing has been done or commented on yet?



Prrsha #15 Posted 22 September 2016 - 07:14 AM

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Well... still no reply about the Mrrshan problem yet.  Not even an official statement on if it was intentional or not.  Now that the sales numbers are in, do you have a roadmap of issues that can be addressed to the public?  It would be really nice to do so instead of suggesting things to thin air.


 

So far the linked poll from over a month ago is still up there.  If anyone wishes to vote or comment constructively to the topic, please do so!  :3


 

To the development and conceptual staff, do you have anything yet (after 5 months and counting now) to say about the current issue?  Is it on oversight, planned feature, or something that is on the list to be addressed?



Prrsha #16 Posted 07 October 2016 - 11:33 PM

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I noticed a new patch that make Mrrshan more likeable to other races.  This is odd given that they are a "Warlord" race.  I still have no reply given the direction the developers intended the Mrrshan to follow.  Like stated so many times they are the only race in the new MOO that DO NOT follow the racial traits of their predecessors.

DJO_Maverick #17 Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:54 AM

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It would be nice to get an explanation, but I'm content with the race mod righting the wrong for now.

 

The cynic in me is suspicious that since some circles considered the MoO2 Mrrshans to be the best stock race, it might be more than coincidental that the Terrans ended up with the most Mrrshan-like stat set but behind a pay wall, and the Mrrshans themselves ended up with a radically different theme.  There would have been an uproar if the Mrrshans (or any core MoO 1 race) themselves ended up behind a pay wall.

 

But that would be very, very cynical of me to wonder that!  ;)







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