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Another Role for Fighters


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EmperorFredd #1 Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:40 PM

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As I posted earlier, fighters are deemed useless by the people I have seen post.  They die quickly on the battlefield and the starship space is better used with other weapons.  Perhaps other players have a different perspective.  I already posted one idea for improving their usability and making them a real force.  Now I have another:

 

Air support for planetary invasions.  At present, when a defending planet has tanks and battleoids, I simply bomb the crap out of it until my marines can take their marines.  But if I could have fighters provide air support, they could counteract the tanks and battleoids.  Now, there is clear precedent for this role for fighters.  In every major sci fi franchise that uses fighter craft, they freely enter planetary atmospheres and do at times play this role.  It also is quite logical given Terran military history.  We simply would not develop an invasion paradigm that did not include sending air support for our ground troops.  The capability would be built in to our fighter craft.

 

This would give us a real reason to build aircraft carriers.



Omega_Weapon #2 Posted 24 September 2016 - 04:05 PM

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Fighters should definitely be able to take part in planetary battles. I'm still waiting for planetary fighter garrison to be implemented too. Should be able to deploy fighters (ship borne or planet based) to attack enemies anywhere else within a system. The limited way they are used now in tactical combat is silly and pointless. They can't even fly farther than a ship's weapons will fire...

Edited by Omega_Weapon, 24 September 2016 - 04:06 PM.


EmperorFredd #3 Posted 24 September 2016 - 04:27 PM

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on 24 September 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Fighters should definitely be able to take part in planetary battles. I'm still waiting for planetary fighter garrison to be implemented too. Should be able to deploy fighters (ship borne or planet based) to attack enemies anywhere else within a system. The limited way they are used now in tactical combat is silly and pointless. They can't even fly farther than a ship's weapons will fire...

 

Did you see my post a couple of weeks ago?  I discussed the force projection role of fighters and how the way MOO implements fighters cancels that role.  You are absolutely right, fighters should extend the effective fighting range of the mothership, not just be a manned missile.

Omega_Weapon #4 Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:47 PM

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View PostEmperorFredd, on 24 September 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

 

Did you see my post a couple of weeks ago?  I discussed the force projection role of fighters and how the way MOO implements fighters cancels that role.  You are absolutely right, fighters should extend the effective fighting range of the mothership, not just be a manned missile.

 

I may have missed it. Can you put up a link?

diehardtwinsfan #5 Posted 25 September 2016 - 12:32 AM

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they could use some tweaks to make them worthwhile, though to be fair other than MOO3, they never were worth anything.  For one, I'd be curious if the space matches the size of the weapon they carry... for two, the shouldn't need to simply go in, fire once, and refuel.  Let them stick around and fight.

Skaughtey #6 Posted 25 September 2016 - 03:25 PM

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I would like to see them borrow fighter mechanics from Starsector or Starcraft. The mothership would have the ability to produce more fighters during combat to replenish the ones that were lost, (not too quickly of course).  They definitely need to increase flight range. Also having them be able to use different formations like the rest of your ships would be nice. They could even go the route of having you control a squadron of 5 or so fighters as if it was a single unit. I also agree that having them as air support for ground combat and solar system defense would be really cool. Lastly, I would love to have a lowered space cost or increased number of fighters per bay so you can have a carrier play-style. I've always wanted to play the Klackons and build huge Hive-carriers with massive swarms of small fighters buzzing around their target. As it stands, I have to be satisfied with unending numbers of frigates...

PLA_123 #7 Posted 26 September 2016 - 06:58 AM

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Agreed with all  the above.

 

Fighters are not making into the current ship design because they are simply not effective enough against beam ships. Some things to consider;

- Increased range (+150?)

- Higher HP.

- Significantly Higher Beam Defense (like +50 or something) due to their mobility.

- Ability to carry best beam weapon, best bombs and best torpedoes once researched.

- Fighters should also carry best Shield after researched. This gives the Fighters much more durability against PD weapons once high shield tech have been researched (Class Vll, -19 dmg negated) given PD weapons have reduced dmg and therefore increase the effectiveness of the energy shield.

- Ability to target incoming missiles if missiles are within firing range (not sure if this is doable?).


 

Another thing to consider is what role would a Carrier ship design be effective during the game (Mid, Mid-Late or Late).



St_Turkey #8 Posted 26 September 2016 - 06:59 PM

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View PostPLA_123, on 26 September 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Fighters are not making into the current ship design because they are simply not effective enough against beam ships. Some things to consider;

- Increased range (+150?)

- Significantly Higher Beam Defense (like +50 or something) due to their mobility.

- Ability to carry best beam weapon, best bombs and best torpedoes once researched.

- Fighters should also carry best Shield after researched. This gives the Fighters much more durability against PD weapons once high shield tech have been researched (Class Vll, -19 dmg negated) given PD weapons have reduced dmg and therefore increase the effectiveness of the energy shield.

- Ability to target incoming missiles if missiles are within firing range (not sure if this is doable?).

 

These are the things I think need to be included, however some other points:

 - MoO 2, Fighters and Heavy Fighters used their PD Weapons up to four times before Reloading.  This should continue.

 - Fighters and Heavy Fighters should use PD values of the Best Energy Cannons.

 - Bombers and Heavy Fighters should use best Torpedo with a PD value modification in Space Combat.  Twice for Heavy Fighters, Three times for Bombers (reason to carry Bombers later) before Reload.

 - Bomber and Heavy Fighter Bays should be considered as providing the Ship 3-4 Bombs of best Bomb Tech per Bomber Bay, and 2-3 Bombs of the Best Bomb Tech per Heavy Fighter Bay.

 - Fighters will (if close enough) use a Firing to intercept Missiles, for a reason to carry Fighters late game.

 

 - I like the idea of Heavy Fighters prioritizing Troops, Tanks, and Battloids with their Bombs, but I don't know if the code can handle differentiating between the different sources of Bombs...

 

 - What if Bombers or Heavy Fighters had a chance of their Bombs bypassing Planetary Shields, with Flux Shields having a reduced chance of penetration?  Again, I don't know if the engine is recognizing different Bomb sources types and could handle this modification.

 

Also, Fighter Bays need to be separated from a choice from Battle Pods.  Right now, only an AI, Uncreative, and Creatives would consider taking Fighter Bays over Battle Pods.  This makes even less sense when the other two fighter techs are not tied to an either/or choice.


Edited by St_Turkey, 26 September 2016 - 07:01 PM.


EmperorFredd #9 Posted 26 September 2016 - 09:07 PM

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View PostSt_Turkey, on 26 September 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

 

These are the things I think need to be included, however some other points:

 - MoO 2, Fighters and Heavy Fighters used their PD Weapons up to four times before Reloading.  This should continue.

 - Fighters and Heavy Fighters should use PD values of the Best Energy Cannons.

 - Bombers and Heavy Fighters should use best Torpedo with a PD value modification in Space Combat.  Twice for Heavy Fighters, Three times for Bombers (reason to carry Bombers later) before Reload.

 - Bomber and Heavy Fighter Bays should be considered as providing the Ship 3-4 Bombs of best Bomb Tech per Bomber Bay, and 2-3 Bombs of the Best Bomb Tech per Heavy Fighter Bay.

 - Fighters will (if close enough) use a Firing to intercept Missiles, for a reason to carry Fighters late game.

 

 - I like the idea of Heavy Fighters prioritizing Troops, Tanks, and Battloids with their Bombs, but I don't know if the code can handle differentiating between the different sources of Bombs...

 

 - What if Bombers or Heavy Fighters had a chance of their Bombs bypassing Planetary Shields, with Flux Shields having a reduced chance of penetration?  Again, I don't know if the engine is recognizing different Bomb sources types and could handle this modification.

 

Also, Fighter Bays need to be separated from a choice from Battle Pods.  Right now, only an AI, Uncreative, and Creatives would consider taking Fighter Bays over Battle Pods.  This makes even less sense when the other two fighter techs are not tied to an either/or choice.

 

Good points.  My idea on fighters participating in ground combat is really simpler and assumes that the craft themselves are entering the atmosphere and acting exactly like modern ground support jets.  So on the one side you would have Marines and Tanks like it is now, and on the other side would be Marines and Aircraft.  Aircraft would take losses just like Tanks do.  So all the engine has to do is treat aircraft like a tank on the other side of the battle.  I would not expect it to be a complicated modification to make.

diehardtwinsfan #10 Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:29 PM

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I'd add two classes of fighters:  defensive and offensive... pretty straight forward, but defensive fighters stay near the fleet and shoot down missiles/torpedos and engage the enemy if by chance they get close.  They have rapid point defense, added speed, and lower armor/shields.  Offensive fighters are a bit slower, carry a heavier weapon, and have a primary purpose of assault.  Should be guided like a ship.

EmperorFredd #11 Posted 27 September 2016 - 11:09 PM

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View Postdiehardtwinsfan, on 27 September 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

I'd add two classes of fighters:  defensive and offensive... pretty straight forward, but defensive fighters stay near the fleet and shoot down missiles/torpedos and engage the enemy if by chance they get close.  They have rapid point defense, added speed, and lower armor/shields.  Offensive fighters are a bit slower, carry a heavier weapon, and have a primary purpose of assault.  Should be guided like a ship.

 

That's your interceptors-heavy fighters dichotomy from MOO2, which comes from real life.  The interceptor is a pure dogfighter intended to intercept incoming aircraft, while the fighter-bomber (or heavy fighter) is a long-range fighter that carries ground attack weapons as well.  Heck, you could also throw in an escort fighter.  :)

St_Turkey #12 Posted 28 September 2016 - 05:14 AM

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View PostEmperorFredd, on 26 September 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

 

Good points.  My idea on fighters participating in ground combat is really simpler and assumes that the craft themselves are entering the atmosphere and acting exactly like modern ground support jets.  So on the one side you would have Marines and Tanks like it is now, and on the other side would be Marines and Aircraft.  Aircraft would take losses just like Tanks do.  So all the engine has to do is treat aircraft like a tank on the other side of the battle.  I would not expect it to be a complicated modification to make.

 

That would be simpler.  In a way, if we look at just having Bombers and Heavy Fighters as providing the ship with Bombs, and Fighters counting as a new form of "tank", this would allow Carriers to fill a triple role in the game.  They would be effective escorts of Troop Transports and then help drop the Shield so an Invasion can begin.  It would then be a factor in Ground Combat.  Loss of these Fighters should be reflected in damage to the ship as well (effectively, damaging the Bays, if we can).

Skaughtey #13 Posted 30 September 2016 - 11:27 AM

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Oh my goodness so many good idea here for fighters.

View Postdiehardtwinsfan, on 27 September 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

I'd add two classes of fighters:  defensive and offensive... pretty straight forward, but defensive fighters stay near the fleet and shoot down missiles/torpedos and engage the enemy if by chance they get close.  They have rapid point defense, added speed, and lower armor/shields.  Offensive fighters are a bit slower, carry a heavier weapon, and have a primary purpose of assault.  Should be guided like a ship.

 

This would be amazing.




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