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Balanced Races Mod

Mod Race balance

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Spud_Dastardly #1 Posted 25 September 2016 - 06:37 AM

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This mod is no longer actively supported and may not function on the latest version of the game.  It has been replaced with my new mega mod: 5X - The Ultimate Balance Mod, which you can get here:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=797954504

http://www.nexusmods.com/masteroforionconquerthestars/mods/6/?

 

Original Post:

Spoiler

 


Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 12 November 2016 - 11:12 AM.

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Arent11 #2 Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:19 AM

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That is really great work. If I have time, maybe I'll do my own, but I am quite happy with a lot of these changes.

 

I especially like the changes to Psilon, Mrrshan & Bulrathi, because they synergize a little better/feel more true to the races.

The Darlok should maybe be a little more mysterious/mistrusted/repulsive, but just for flavor/rpg reasons. To make them really shine, they need to revamp the espionage system & they said already that they are planning to do that.

I also feel that Meklar shouldn't be "borg", I would imagine them to be more like ~posbis :) But that is just my opinion. A machine consciousness could be just "nice" to other living beings & not necessarily "evil".



mewdego #3 Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:33 AM

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i lack your patience to do that modding, i take my hat off for you.

 

about the rebalancing, may i suggest to make them linear, for example: if you pay 4 points to get +25% pop grow you should also get the equal amount if you chose -25% por grow...

about the gravity, since you are normal gravity tolerant anyway and any other choice give you the extra tolerance, both low and high gravity should cost the same, perhaps 2 or 3 points each, and of course all for the sum of both. actually, high gravity gives you bigger and richer planets... makes sense that way.

 

about the screen space, i don't know about the .csv file, but perhaps it's possible of instead adding a scroll just tweak the column spacing...

 

remember, silicoids were repulsive in moo2 ;)

 

---

 

anyways, i got my hopes renewed by the devs, take a look:

http://forum.mastero...this-on-reddit/


Edited by mewdego, 25 September 2016 - 12:50 PM.


Spud_Dastardly #4 Posted 25 September 2016 - 12:51 PM

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View PostArent11, on 25 September 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

That is really great work. If I have time, maybe I'll do my own, but I am quite happy with a lot of these changes.

 

I especially like the changes to Psilon, Mrrshan & Bulrathi, because they synergize a little better/feel more true to the races.

The Darlok should maybe be a little more mysterious/mistrusted/repulsive, but just for flavor/rpg reasons. To make them really shine, they need to revamp the espionage system & they said already that they are planning to do that.

I also feel that Meklar shouldn't be "borg", I would imagine them to be more like ~posbis :) But that is just my opinion. A machine consciousness could be just "nice" to other living beings & not necessarily "evil".

Thanks!  I'll take a look at the Darlok's AI settings to see if I can make the mistrust other players more.  I saw some settings for that in the yaml file, but I haven't played around with it at all.  I'll take a look at including some other race traits that might fit better with them too.

 

Perhaps the borg aren't the right model for the Meklar.  I think the lore has them as rather neutral actually.  I still think the instant assimilation is a cool trait for them though, and in my recent test game, they were able to keep up with population growth just fine.

View Postmewdego, on 25 September 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

i lack your patience to do that modding, i take my hat off for you.

 

about the rebalancing, may i suggest to make them linear, for example: if you pay 4 points to get +25% pop grow you should also get the equal amount if you chose -25% por grow...

about the gravity, since you are normal gravity tolerant anyway and any other choice give you the extra tolerance, both low and high gravity should cost the same, perhaps 2 or 3 points each, and of course all for the sum of both.

 

about the screen space, i don't know about the .csv file, but perhaps it's possible of instead adding a scroll just tweak the column spacing...

 

remember, silicoids were repulsive in moo2 ;)

 

---

 

anyways, i got my hopes renewed by the devs, take a look:

http://forum.mastero...this-on-reddit/

I'm glad you like it.  Here's the reason I didn't make it linear.  An increase from 100 to 150 is a 50% increase, but an increase from 50 to 100 is a 100% increase.  For simplicity sake, suppose 4 population is the norm, they each produce 1 production, and you want to build something that costs 12 production.  With 4 population, it takes 3 turns.  With a 50% increase in population to 6, it takes 2 turns.  With a 50% penalty to population bringing you down to 2, it now takes 6 turns: twice as long.  So in general, a % penalty should give you more points than the same % as a bonus costs in points.  You also get diminishing returns on higher bonuses, so a 50% bonus compared to a 25% bonus is less drastic than a 25% bonus compared to normal.  There are exceptions of course, for example missions risk -10% is hardly a penalty at all if you aren't planning on doing any offensive spying anyway, so I wanted to avoid giving away too many free points for things like that. While keeping that in mind, I at least tried to make it close to linear: only deviating by 1 point here or there.  To be consistent at least, I probably should have set -25% population growth to -4.  I'll take a closer look at the balance again when I update this.  Edit:  I have decided you're right; linear is best.

 

Now about gravity, keep in mind that high G planets are inherently superior to Low g planets.  The only planets in the game that are low g are small poor, small ultra poor, and medium ultra poor planets, and even without low g these are the worst possible planets in the game.  Meanwhile the high g ones are large ultra rich, huge rich, and huge ultra rich, which are the best possible planets in the game.  I could see reducing High g to +3 or increasing Low g to +2 perhaps, but they really are unequal bonuses.

 

For the screen space, I have no control over the column spacing, width, height, font size, or any of that.  The only thing in the racialperks yaml is just a list of traits, references to their names and effects, and their point costs.  As far as I've seen, no one has been able to locate the actual screen layout data in the game's files.  If someone does manage to find the settings for that in the game files, I'll be sure to take a look at tweaking it.

 

The Silicoids still have the repulsive trait; I would never take that away from them ;)

 

I saw that other thread too.  I'm really looking forward to those changes :D  I'm sure I'll have a lot of work to do with this mod when the next patch comes out.


Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 28 September 2016 - 02:26 PM.

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Skaughtey #5 Posted 25 September 2016 - 01:12 PM

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This is nice! I am definitely gonna try this out. I'll probably spend days fiddling with the files myself. I'm interested in making some really diverse play styles. My current attempts at a pure money/buyout build so far are being hampered by no production/income in the early game because I have to take too many penalties. But with this I think I can tweak it a lot better. I also want to try my own variations of all the races.

Vahouth #6 Posted 25 September 2016 - 03:06 PM

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Really appreciate your efforts in creating this balance thread Spud!  I may even try my own suggestions for the gog version. (If it's any different that is).

There's one thing that troubles me though. 

I'd hate to see the devs looking at this kind of threads as an excuse to stop bothering with race balance. 

These threads should serve as feedback hubs instead. 

 

EDIT: Is there a way to mess with the composite traits like Warlord?



Spud_Dastardly #7 Posted 25 September 2016 - 04:14 PM

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I hope they continue to work on race balance, but I'm not waiting for them to do so.  Yes you can change what Warlord and such do by editing the RacialPerks.yaml file.  The warlord trait looks like this:

Spoiler

You can easily change this by changing the perk that it refers to, so for instance something like

Spoiler

For the name of each trait, you have to find that trait in the yaml.  The "level" denotes which one it chooses from among the options for that trait, so for example ship attack level 2 is +25% (level 1 is -25%).  The "exclusions" refers to traits that are mutually exclusive to this one and can't be selected at the same time.  You would want to edit the ship attack and command points bonuses to list warlord as an exclusion in this example while removing that exclusion from the ground combat bonuses.  You can create new composite traits too, but you can only reference existing traits from among the basic choices, not create totally new ones like "generates 1 command point per colony."  I thought about removing ship attack from the Alkari's natural pilots trait, but they needed the points to be used anyway.


Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 25 September 2016 - 04:31 PM.

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Summon3r #8 Posted 25 September 2016 - 04:38 PM

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Spud you sir are a god damned genius, i loved your MoO 2 work (i think you did ICE mod?) and i really really am looking forward to more of your work!

 

THANKS!



Spud_Dastardly #9 Posted 25 September 2016 - 04:41 PM

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Thanks, but no, I didn't have anything to do with the ICE mod.  Actually this is my first time modding a game.  It's easier than I thought it would be, at least for this kind of stuff  :happy:

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Skaughtey #10 Posted 25 September 2016 - 07:24 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 25 September 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Perhaps the borg aren't the right model for the Meklar.  I think the lore has them as rather neutral actually.  I still think the instant assimilation is a cool trait for them though, and in my recent test game, they were able to keep up with population growth just fine.

 

I think they are supposed to be a hybrid between the Borg from Star Trek and the Cylons from the original Battlestar Galactica. Their lore has elements of both and, after all, when you mix Cylons and Borg you get Cyborgs... just saying =D


Edited by Skaughtey, 25 September 2016 - 07:34 PM.


Archont4000 #11 Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:06 PM

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Amazing! Thank you so much!!

 

PS. Any idea how it will work in multiplayer?



Spud_Dastardly #12 Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:21 AM

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I don't know if it will work in multiplayer since I only play single player.  It's possible they disabled this kind of modding to prevent cheating, since you could easily change this to give yourself 100 points for a custom race.  If it will work, it probably has to be installed on the host computer if not all player's computers.  You might try hosting a game with it and seeing if it works; I'd be interested to know.

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PLA_123 #13 Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:56 AM

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Great work mate. Will give this mod a try this week and post feed back here.



Ahaneon #14 Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:34 AM

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Doesn't this come pretty close to creating a new race?



Spud_Dastardly #15 Posted 26 September 2016 - 04:11 PM

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View PostAhaneon, on 26 September 2016 - 02:34 AM, said:

Doesn't this come pretty close to creating a new race?

 

I'm not sure what you mean.  I tried to keep each race true to their original designs.

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Summon3r #16 Posted 26 September 2016 - 07:00 PM

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playing on a huge galaxy on hard right now and love this mod, anything that moves the game closer to lore is a pure win in my books

Spud_Dastardly #17 Posted 27 September 2016 - 05:47 PM

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Having tried my mod out for a couple games, I have a few thoughts on balance.

  • I stand by -50% population growth being -9, but -25% needs to be at -4.  That means I need to tweak the Meklar a little bit.
  • I tentatively think minus production should be -3.
  • I noticed the Mrrshan population grows really slowly: almost as slow as the Silicoids.  I started a game with them and found out why.  It's that damn Arid homeworld that slows population growth to a crawl.  I think Arid/Desert homeworld should be -2 instead of -1.  See it's not a problem for the Klackons because they have a food bonus.  But then I need to use that extra point to benefit the Mrrshan population growth.  Giving them straight up food or pop growth wouldn't fit with their design, so I'm thinking of having them start with Biology, though I don't know that it would entirely fix the problem.  I might also alter their AI to give them more inclination toward pop growth. 
  • The Silicoids grow way too slowly still.  Taking away their High G means they have less access to large and huge ultra rich planets for them to grow quickly.  Either they need High g back, or they need +25% population growth.  It's nothing to do with their intended race lore, just about making them balanced.  This presents a problem as to where I would get the points from.   Maybe lithovore should be cheaper?
  • Omniscience is a bit bugged.  It's still playable, but mliitary outposts and sometimes new colonies don't show up on the galaxy screen.  I'm thinking of removing it.

 

Before I make these changes, I'd like your feedback on these points.  Also, what do you think of the Meklar's -25% pop growth with instant assimilation combo?  Do you think the credits from population point costs should be adjusted?  Should I try to rebalance the races to 10 points or possibly 12?  Any other feedback or suggestions are welcome too.  Keep in mind any changes in point values means adjusting any race with that trait as well, so try to think of ways this could work.


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Vahouth #18 Posted 27 September 2016 - 06:58 PM

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Meklar don't need the instant assimilation IMHO. Cybernetic is too much of a bonus already and having them breed somewhat slower is enough. 

I played many games as Meklar with a -25% & -50% growth rate, in hard and very hard difficulty. The first one feels ideal for me.


Edited by Vahouth, 27 September 2016 - 06:59 PM.


Archont4000 #19 Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:08 PM

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Give Sicoids small home world, it could actually help with early colony ship spam

Spud_Dastardly #20 Posted 28 September 2016 - 03:12 AM

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View PostVahouth, on 27 September 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Meklar don't need the instant assimilation IMHO. Cybernetic is too much of a bonus already and having them breed somewhat slower is enough. 

I played many games as Meklar with a -25% & -50% growth rate, in hard and very hard difficulty. The first one feels ideal for me.

 

If I take away the assimilation, then I need to give them something else instead to get them to the same points, unless you think -50% food consumption should be worth more points.  

View PostArchont4000, on 27 September 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

Give Sicoids small home world, it could actually help with early colony ship spam

 

I tried originally having the silicoids on a normal size homeworld, and I ran into a huge issue because they have a volcanic homeworld.  They start with 6 population, and a medium volcanic only has 5 max population, so you actually start the game with more than the max allowed population.  Small volcanic would be even worse in this regard, giving them I think 3 max population.  This is why I made volcanic homeworld worth -3. Large homeworld has to stay unfortunately.

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