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Vahouth #21 Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:59 AM

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Food yield bonuses are probably the strongest in the game so yes, I would definitely place -50% food consumption amongst the most expensive ones. But, if I were to give them another bonus instead of the assimilation power, that would be either a bonus in morale (they're machines after all) or in securiy.


XeeleeNightfighter #22 Posted 28 September 2016 - 05:35 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 27 September 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

I noticed the Mrrshan population grows really slowly: almost as slow as the Silicoids.  I started a game with them and found out why.  It's that damn Arid homeworld that slows population growth to a crawl.  I think Arid/Desert homeworld should be -2 instead of -1.  See it's not a problem for the Klackons because they have a food bonus.  But then I need to use that extra point to benefit the Mrrshan population growth.  Giving them straight up food or pop growth wouldn't fit with their design, so I'm thinking of having them start with Biology, though I don't know that it would entirely fix the problem.  I might also alter their AI to give them more inclination toward pop growth. 

 

Another option might be to give them a grassland homeworld:

 

Add a fifth level to perk_homworld_biome

Block Quote

               - displayName: UBER_PLANET_GRASSLAND_NAME
                description: HOMEWORLD_BIOME_ARID_DESCRIPTION
                value: biome_grassland
                score: -1
                displayIcon: assets/racial_traits/home_biome_arid.png

 

and change perks in perk_plain_dweller

Block Quote

             perks:
               - perk: perk_uber_planet
                 level: 2
               - perk: perk_homeworld_biome
                 level: 5

 

 


Edited by XeeleeNightfighter, 28 September 2016 - 05:36 PM.


Laegad #23 Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:25 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 25 September 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

  • Silicoids: Changed gravity tolerant to pollution immunity.

 

I'm not sure this is something good.

With this Moo, pollution affect biomes, not races.

A race not affected by pollution should pollute a lot, and destroy their biome... but don't care.

This is that silicoid should do !

They should, for example, colonize a gaia world, and transform it to desert because of pollution, but don't care !

 

Is it moddable ?

I'm afraid this is not moddable, and require a "true" "patch" from dev...

 

IMO, the "gravity immunity" was something good for silicoid in the "official" game...

 



Spud_Dastardly #24 Posted 29 September 2016 - 02:35 AM

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View PostXeeleeNightfighter, on 28 September 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

 

Another option might be to give them a grassland homeworld:

 

Add a fifth level to perk_homworld_biome

 

and change perks in perk_plain_dweller

 

Interesting idea.  I would have to do the same with the klackons, sakkra, and silicoids too though to be fair, and it would mean removing the home planet biome from the custom race screen.  The thing is, I like being able to upgrade to an uber planet early/mid game, and I wouldn't want to take that away by just starting with it.  It might also be overpowered to start with basically a gaia, so I would have to increase the point cost and rebalance the races.  I'll keep this idea in mind, but for now I'm looking at giving the Mrrshan +25% food from population as a solution instead.

 

View PostLaegad, on 28 September 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

 

I'm not sure this is something good.

With this Moo, pollution affect biomes, not races.

A race not affected by pollution should pollute a lot, and destroy their biome... but don't care.

This is that silicoid should do !

They should, for example, colonize a gaia world, and transform it to desert because of pollution, but don't care !

 

Is it moddable ?

I'm afraid this is not moddable, and require a "true" "patch" from dev...

 

IMO, the "gravity immunity" was something good for silicoid in the "official" game...

 

 

I came to the same conclusion myself actually.  In my latest build, which I hope to release soon, I switched the Silicoids to Heavy G, and I actually have them at -25% pollution tolerance now since you can't pollute a volcanic anyway.  Giving them low g is pointless since they depend on mineral richness for population growth, so no one reasonably would colonize a low g planet, all of which are poor or ultra poor.  I can't mod the way terraforming works, but you can just let pollution build up and degrade the planet that way.  

 

 

By the way, ElPozoleOlmeca wants to know whether all of you would like a new subforum just for mods.  Respond to his poll here: http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.php?/topic/2053-poll-new-subsection/


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Spud_Dastardly #25 Posted 29 September 2016 - 07:33 AM

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New version uploaded (version 2.0).  Let me know what you think.  I need a break from all this modding...

 

What do you guys think about possibly making the credits bonuses -3, 3, and 6?  They don't seem to be as good as population growth or food.  Maybe I could change them to -20%, +20%, +40% as well because +50% is a little too good for 6 points and -25% is a bit too detrimental for -3.


Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 29 September 2016 - 09:31 AM.

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PLA_123 #26 Posted 29 September 2016 - 11:48 AM

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Hey Spud, I'm playing your three mods at the moment. Great work. Really like the Empire Defense mod, I think 30%+ HP increase hits the sweet spot like you said. Also, the ability to make civil transports at the beginning without researching is such a big relief.

 

For the Mrrashan new race trait, the in-game explanation reads it is Beam Defense +50%, I'm not sure if that's a typo or the actual "+50% Beam Defense" trait was selected.



Spud_Dastardly #27 Posted 29 September 2016 - 12:15 PM

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View PostPLA_123, on 29 September 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Hey Spud, I'm playing your three mods at the moment. Great work. Really like the Empire Defense mod, I think 30%+ HP increase hits the sweet spot like you said. Also, the ability to make civil transports at the beginning without researching is such a big relief.

 

For the Mrrashan new race trait, the in-game explanation reads it is Beam Defense +50%, I'm not sure if that's a typo or the actual "+50% Beam Defense" trait was selected.

 

Hmm, are you sure?  I just double checked the Mrrshan and it definitely says +50% beam attack.  I checked the yaml too and it still says beam attack.  If you could post a screenshot of where it says beam defense for them, that would be helpful.  Also, are you playing on the latest update: version 2.0?

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wwwzugzugorc #28 Posted 29 September 2016 - 01:32 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 29 September 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

New version uploaded (version 2.0).  Let me know what you think.  I need a break from all this modding...

 

What do you guys think about possibly making the credits bonuses -3, 3, and 6?  They don't seem to be as good as population growth or food.  Maybe I could change them to -20%, +20%, +40% as well because +50% is a little too good for 6 points and -25% is a bit too detrimental for -3.

 

Negative credits from population can be free points depending on the rest of your build

DJO_Maverick #29 Posted 29 September 2016 - 03:52 PM

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Spud, thank you for doing this; it's fantastic and solves one of my main three gripes with Nu-MoO (the gutted Mrrshans).

 

One thought I had on the trait set for them you have right now: while I like the added flavor of the arid/grassland combo, I think having to give them a food bonus just to counter it is potentially too beneficial everywhere off their homeworld.  What if you axed that Uber combo and the then-unnecessary food bonus, and upgraded command points to +30% and gave them Physics and -20% ship cost?  Would seem to be more consistent with their past theme, and some extra war benefit to make up for the missing ship XP bonus.  

 

Alternatively, could trade the cost discount for 25% defense (nod to the better starting defense bonus they got from XPd crews), or +10% security (a la dictatorship) and a throwaway like large HW.



Arent11 #30 Posted 29 September 2016 - 06:51 PM

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How about making the Terrans actually interesting? Right now they simply don't feel like evil or badass or anything. They are just *shrug*.

 

 



Laegad #31 Posted 29 September 2016 - 09:35 PM

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In the 1.0 version there was a "Globals.yaml" file, witch is not in the 2.0 version.

In order to install the 2.0 version above the 1.0, should we keep or delete the "Globals.yaml" file ?



Spud_Dastardly #32 Posted 30 September 2016 - 12:48 AM

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View PostDJO_Maverick, on 29 September 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Spud, thank you for doing this; it's fantastic and solves one of my main three gripes with Nu-MoO (the gutted Mrrshans).

 

One thought I had on the trait set for them you have right now: while I like the added flavor of the arid/grassland combo, I think having to give them a food bonus just to counter it is potentially too beneficial everywhere off their homeworld.  What if you axed that Uber combo and the then-unnecessary food bonus, and upgraded command points to +30% and gave them Physics and -20% ship cost?  Would seem to be more consistent with their past theme, and some extra war benefit to make up for the missing ship XP bonus.  

 

Alternatively, could trade the cost discount for 25% defense (nod to the better starting defense bonus they got from XPd crews), or +10% security (a la dictatorship) and a throwaway like large HW.

 

You might be right.  It would be a lot easier to drop the plains dweller perk so that I could get rid of +food.  You've got some good ideas for alternative builds which I'll take a look at, though I'd like to hear from others as to whether they think dropping plains dwellers is a good choice in terms of staying true to their race.

 

View PostArent11, on 29 September 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

How about making the Terrans actually interesting? Right now they simply don't feel like evil or badass or anything. They are just *shrug*.

 

 

 

Sure, I can do that.  Do you have any thoughts on what in particular we could do with them?  Since they're humans, I don't want to give them any bonuses that would be unreasonable for a human such as + population growth.  I'll look at how I can make them a more interesting warlike race.

 

View PostLaegad, on 29 September 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

In the 1.0 version there was a "Globals.yaml" file, witch is not in the 2.0 version.

In order to install the 2.0 version above the 1.0, should we keep or delete the "Globals.yaml" file ?

 

Delete the Globals.yaml file.  Its purpose in 1.0 was to give you 11 race picks, but now I've balanced everything to 10 so it's unnecessary.

 


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Arent11 #33 Posted 30 September 2016 - 08:58 AM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 30 September 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

 

 

Sure, I can do that.  Do you have any thoughts on what in particular we could do with them?  Since they're humans, I don't want to give them any bonuses that would be unreasonable for a human such as + population growth.  I'll look at how I can make them a more interesting warlike race.

 

 

Lore:

 

The Terran Khanate is the twisted reflection of the noble Human race. They are ambitious, persistent, and cunning. Yet, they were born of blood and war, leaving them unable to move past the traumas of their development. All they see is war. All they know is power, destruction, and ruthless manipulation. They see the galaxy as a lawless space ruined by social freedoms run rampant, leading the races to weakness and decay.

The Khanate was born in a time of great struggle, during a time when their planet was dying and they were forced into exile. On barely light speed capable generation ships they left their home world. Over the generations ships were lost, rebellions occurred, and the will to live became weak.

The First of the Khans, Khan Leda, a merciless and calculating individual who operated from the shadows, rose to power in this time of chaos. Dire circumstances called for radical solutions in the eyes of the Khan as she ordered bloody purges to stem the tide of deviancy, corruption, and greed. Castes were established and dissidents were hushed. All roots of humanity were burned away– leaving the newly formed Terran people to rise from the ashes.

After consolidating her power her next goal was to find a new home. After several years scouts had found a barren, arid planet with a breathable yet slightly tainted, atmosphere. Descending on Alpha Ceti the Terran's fought the planet itself to survive. Once they began to expand across the world is when they discovered The Towers - an ancient system that cloaked their world allowing them to thrive undisturbed. If the Towers had been there before they landed has been a mystery to the Terran's since they were discovered.

The Terrans, warped by their once Human instinct for survival, now seek to guarantee their position of authority in the galaxy. They intend to use their power to guide the errant races to the path of strength, or the will of the Khan, by forcefully removing their weakest aspects so the strong may thrive.

 

-> So, according to the lore they are still humans & only differ in their ethics/government. They seem to be:

 

(1) Warlike

(2) Inner feuds/power struggles/caste system

(3) Towers/artifacts on their homeworld

(4) Cunning, backstabbing


So, maybe something like ~scientific warmongers? A lot of people like that combination & combined with fitting negative traits it would be an "overpowered" but not too overpowered race. Maybe something like:

 

(1) Elite Crews: +25% Beam Attack, +25% Beam Defense

(2) Inner Feuds: Negative morale or another trait that represents inner conflicts

(3) Towers on their homeworld: Artifacts, maybe also a small science boost (25%, smaller than Psilons of course) or a stealth advantage, since the towers *cloaked* their home system & they maybe learned that

(4) Cunning: Negative Diplomacy, they are feared by everyone

 

That's of course just my opinion, any other vision of that race is also welcome.
 

 



Spud_Dastardly #34 Posted 30 September 2016 - 10:51 AM

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View PostArent11, on 30 September 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

 

-> So, according to the lore they are still humans & only differ in their ethics/government. They seem to be:

 

(1) Warlike

(2) Inner feuds/power struggles/caste system

(3) Towers/artifacts on their homeworld

(4) Cunning, backstabbing


So, maybe something like ~scientific warmongers? A lot of people like that combination & combined with fitting negative traits it would be an "overpowered" but not too overpowered race. Maybe something like:

 

(1) Elite Crews: +25% Beam Attack, +25% Beam Defense

(2) Inner Feuds: Negative morale or another trait that represents inner conflicts

(3) Towers on their homeworld: Artifacts, maybe also a small science boost (25%, smaller than Psilons of course) or a stealth advantage, since the towers *cloaked* their home system & they maybe learned that

(4) Cunning: Negative Diplomacy, they are feared by everyone

 

That's of course just my opinion, any other vision of that race is also welcome.
 

Well that certainly gives me something to go on.  I don't want to give them beam attack or beam defense bonuses because I feel that would bring them too close to the Alkari and Mrrshan, and it doesn't really make sense that as humans they would have any natural ability of piloting ships beyond that of normal humans.  In terms of morale, a literal interpretation of their inner feuds would seem to point to a penalty to morale, but in the game, morale determines how many workers go on strike.  Considering the phrase "Castes were established and dissidents were hushed,"  I would argue this points to a stronger morale in terms of a brutal regime where people are killed if they try to strike.  Besides, I really like the idea of making an unbreakable morale race.  In terms of gameplay, I feel that the best option for making them a warlike race that avoids the ship attack/defense bonuses would be to make them a race built around producing as many ships as possible.  Remember it's about making a race that's competitive, has unique features, and is fun to play.  To that end, I propose the following:

  • Production +50% (6) (Reflects a brutal regime that pushes their population to the brink for the cause of warfare)
  • Ship cost -20% (2)
  • +30% command points (3) (to accommodate all of those extra ships)
  • Unbreakable morale (8)
  • Arid homeworld (-2) ("After several years scouts had found a barren, arid planet with a breathable yet slightly tainted, atmosphere" in reference to Alpha Ceti)
  • Diplomacy: Reduced negotiations, disposition (-2) (As you said)
  • Artifacts homeworld (+1) (the Towers)
  • -25% credits (-3 under new credits suggestion) (a race of refugees in a constant state of war likely has poor citizens, balances well with unbreakable morale since you can set your taxes to +5 BC the whole game)
  • Poor homeworld (-2) (balances with +production and -ship cost which makes colony ships incredibly cheap, fits with the terrible home world narrative)
  • -25% assimilation (-1) (Enslaved workers under a brutal dictator won't assimilate easily)
  • -20% security (-2) (Inner feuds: members of a society willing to leak state secrets to foreign enemies in order to harm their domestic enemies)

 

This would certainly be more interesting than the current build!  I also thought about swapping a couple minus traits for uncreative (-3) instead since a society consumed with war like theirs probably doesn't encourage a lot of creative minds. I like this build as is though.  Let me know what you think.  I'll test it out and try to make adjustments to the AI that have it take advantage of these new traits. 

 


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Vahouth #35 Posted 30 September 2016 - 12:17 PM

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I don't agree with the 50% bonus to production. That effectively makes them the most productive race in the game, rivaling even the Klackon! A +25% would be more appropriate IMHO and even then, I'm having second thoughts.

 

If I could design the Terrans from scratch, they would be the exact opposite from Humans:

+20% Command points

Extended Barracks

Militarists

+20% Morale  (more money to build ships in times of war)

+10% Security (exactly because they have a repressive regime and have eyes everywhere)

Worsen disposition with the Humans

 

There are some many things one could add to make each race feel and play unique, but unfortunately that's not the case.

For example the Terrans could have a trait that increases morale and/or production during war.

 

At least ES2 will have unique playstyles for each and every race...



Arent11 #36 Posted 30 September 2016 - 01:00 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 30 September 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Well that certainly gives me something to go on.  I don't want to give them beam attack or beam defense bonuses because I feel that would bring them too close to the Alkari and Mrrshan, and it doesn't really make sense that as humans they would have any natural ability of piloting ships beyond that of normal humans.  In terms of morale, a literal interpretation of their inner feuds would seem to point to a penalty to morale, but in the game, morale determines how many workers go on strike.  Considering the phrase "Castes were established and dissidents were hushed,"  I would argue this points to a stronger morale in terms of a brutal regime where people are killed if they try to strike.  Besides, I really like the idea of making an unbreakable morale race.  In terms of gameplay, I feel that the best option for making them a warlike race that avoids the ship attack/defense bonuses would be to make them a race built around producing as many ships as possible.  Remember it's about making a race that's competitive, has unique features, and is fun to play.  To that end, I propose the following:

  • Production +50% (6) (Reflects a brutal regime that pushes their population to the brink for the cause of warfare)
  •  
  • Unbreakable morale (8)
  •  

 

Although I like the basic idea of your race, it defeats a little your own argument ;) You yourself said that Terrans shouldn't have bonuses that differ too much from "normal" humans. An "unbreakable morale" would be something for Klackon hive minds & 50% production something for highly efficient Meklar.

 

But I agree that it is difficult to make the Terrans unique & different from the other races without deviating too much from what "normal" humans can do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Spud_Dastardly #37 Posted 30 September 2016 - 01:26 PM

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View PostVahouth, on 30 September 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

I don't agree with the 50% bonus to production. That effectively makes them the most productive race in the game, rivaling even the Klackon! A +25% would be more appropriate IMHO and even then, I'm having second thoughts.

 

If I could design the Terrans from scratch, they would be the exact opposite from Humans:

+20% Command points

Extended Barracks

Militarists

+20% Morale  (more money to build ships in times of war)

+10% Security (exactly because they have a repressive regime and have eyes everywhere)

Worsen disposition with the Humans

 

There are some many things one could add to make each race feel and play unique, but unfortunately that's not the case.

For example the Terrans could have a trait that increases morale and/or production during war.

 

At least ES2 will have unique playstyles for each and every race...

Extended barracks and ground marine training rate (part of militarists) are basically useless ever since they made it so you can produce unlimited troop transports.  It has only a very modest defensive benefit.  The minus to security was to balance out the other traits, but I could drop it if I drop production and/or unbreakable morale.  I can worsen their disposition with the humans, though currently their bias is set to Restless, which I believe is the lowest of all the racial biases in the file (it's the same way the Mrrshan feel about the Alkari).  Scaling linearly from the current morale cost would put 20% at the same cost as unbreakable, and it would for the most part have the same effect (able to set 5bc taxes the whole game) with maybe a handful of population going on strike at some point.

View PostArent11, on 30 September 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

 

Although I like the basic idea of your race, it defeats a little your own argument ;) You yourself said that Terrans shouldn't have bonuses that differ too much from "normal" humans. An "unbreakable morale" would be something for Klackon hive minds & 50% production something for highly efficient Meklar.

 

But I agree that it is difficult to make the Terrans unique & different from the other races without deviating too much from what "normal" humans can do.

I can't be too strict with the "nothing special about these humans" thing when I'm trying to create a unique race.  It's plausible that a group of humans can be so driven that they boost their own normal level of productivity, like whereas normal humans work 8 hours per day, 5 days per weak, the terrans might work 11 hours, 6 days per week and hence be that much more productive.  I can see that the production bonus and unbreakable morale are unpopular choices though.I just wanted to make them able to build ships faster than any other race.   I don't think that they would be able to out do the Klackons for production since the Klackons have that food bonus which gives them a much larger population and my design gives them poor homeworld which would get them off to a much slower start.   

 

Vahouth's design doesn't change their current design that much.  Imo, like the original design it doesn't give them that niche that they are best suited to.   I think -20% ship cost is a must-have for them.  I think arid, artifacts hw works naturally from their lore too.  How about this for a compromise:

  • +25% production (3)
  • -20% ship cost (2)
  • +10% security (1)
  • +10% morale (4)
  • Arid HW (-2)
  • Artifacts HW (1)
  • +20% command points (2)
  • Either reduced negotiations, reduced disposition, reduced assimilation, or two of those and take +30% command points.

Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 30 September 2016 - 01:38 PM.

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Vahouth #38 Posted 30 September 2016 - 02:25 PM

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I think that you should give them either -20% ship cost or +25% production, not both. Though I'd prefer the former.

That and a +30% command points is enough IMHO to give them a niche.

Artifact HW is not something I'd choose or Arid. Arid especially can criple them early on. Maybe their HW could be a large terran instead?

And definitely reduced negotiations and high morale should be in. This way they must rely on taxes instead trading to boost their income.



Arent11 #39 Posted 30 September 2016 - 02:41 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 30 September 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

   

Vahouth's design doesn't change their current design that much.  Imo, like the original design it doesn't give them that niche that they are best suited to.   I think -20% ship cost is a must-have for them.  I think arid, artifacts hw works naturally from their lore too.  How about this for a compromise:

 

If we can't agree on a certain design, it is perfectly ok to leave the Terrans as they are. It was just an idea, if we can't come up with something unique, don't change them.

 

View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 30 September 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

 

  • +25% production (3)
  • -20% ship cost (2)
  • +10% security (1)
  • +10% morale (4)
  • Arid HW (-2)
  • Artifacts HW (1)
  • +20% command points (2)
  • Either reduced negotiations, reduced disposition, reduced assimilation, or two of those and take +30% command points.

 

View PostVahouth, on 30 September 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

I think that you should give them either -20% ship cost or +25% production, not both. Though I'd prefer the former.

That and a +30% command points is enough IMHO to give them a niche.

Artifact HW is not something I'd choose or Arid. Arid especially can criple them early on. Maybe their HW could be a large terran instead?

And definitely reduced negotiations and high morale should be in. This way they must rely on taxes instead trading to boost their income.

 

Both of your suggestions seem to go into a good direction:

 

(1) -20% ship cost (IMHO a huge benefit)

(2) +x% command points

(3) high morale

(4) reduced negotiation

(5) normal starting planet, if points are still available maybe artifacts

 

 

 

 

 



EmperorFredd #40 Posted 30 September 2016 - 03:02 PM

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Maybe the starting planet should be harsh but rich and artifacts.  After all, that lore said they had to fight their planet to survive.





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