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5X - The Ultimate Balance Mod

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Spud_Dastardly #1 Posted 12 November 2016 - 11:34 AM

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My mega mod is finally available on the Steam workshop or on Nexus Mods!  It combines my previous five mods, the balanced races, strong empire defense, spying/diplomacy, galaxy setup, and tech tree, all into one big mod.  Here are some new features for the new version of the mod:

  • You can now choose terraforming or jump gate as a starting tech for a custom race.  For the cheaters out there, I also added a 100 free points option to help you steam roll the galaxy.  
  • Added Impossible difficulty.  Extreme difficulty basically adds 50% to the AI's everything (except food, which I'll explain), and Impossible bumps that up to 100%.  One slight tweak: Very Hard, Extreme, and Impossible difficulties only give a 10% bonus to food output now (same as on hard difficulty).  This is so the Silicoids don't get left behind and so you can't exploit the large populations of easy to invade races to dramatically boost your population.
  • Rebalanced the new pollution system.  Toxic processor gives more cleanup, population no longer generated pollution so you aren't penalized for having bigger, better planets.  Radiation shield, flux shield, and barrier shield now also offer some pollution clean up to help you out when pollution processors and core waste dumps aren't enough.  You now always get the core waste dump instead of having it be a choice tech, and deep core mine has been moved to a different node.  
  • Advanced missile base and Advanced orbital batteries added to further boost the strength of defenses in mid to late game.  There's no chance you'll shoot down the armada of missiles you'll have to face should you attack a planet with an advanced missile base!
  • Battle pods doesn't take up space any more, and the AI always puts it on their ships, and the defenses automatically equip it.
  • Fighters now deploy twice as many fighters per deployment, doubling their damage.  They also have double the range now and can attack from an incredible distance.  I haven't done much testing with them yet, but I think this will give a much stronger incentive to use them.  
  • New end game miniaturizations and layout of the end game tech tree.  Two tech nodes are now choices to benefit creative.  You'll find miniaturizations for fighters and special systems in the hyper advanced nodes.  Added a new computer, the chromodynamic computer (quantum chromodynamics is actually a thing btw unlike "moleculartronics" )
  • Nerfed the end game buildings a little bit.  The production one gives you +100 now, and the galactic command center gives you a 20% reduction to command point cost plus 50 extra command point.  Instant gaia costs more industry now.
  • Created several new rounds of anomaly spawning and increased the rewards.  Now you really get a treasure trove of BC when you find BC, though ships and tech are more likely now, and in some of the later anomalies you get better ships: even possibly a colony ship around turn 70-100 or so if you're lucky!  I wanted to make anomalies spawn throughout the entire game, but the game just stops spawning them eventually for some reason.  I can't figure out what the trigger is.
  • Other minor tweaks to buildings like giving marine barracks +10% morale but reducing holo simulator to 10% and giving colony base now +1 production.  
  • New pre-warp technologies.

I would love to list all of the changes over vanilla that this mod has, but you would be reading a novel at that point!  I'll post some documentation soon.  You're welcome to continue using the other mod threads to discuss specific aspects of the new mod, but I figured a new thread was probably necessary to have a place to discuss the new composite mod in general.  As always, your feedback and suggestions are welcome!

 

By the way, ElPozoleOlmeca when are we getting that new mods section for the forums? 


Edited by Spud_Dastardly, 15 November 2016 - 08:24 AM.

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diehardtwinsfan #2 Posted 12 November 2016 - 01:10 PM

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was it intentional to make the High G pick cost 0?

Spud_Dastardly #3 Posted 12 November 2016 - 01:26 PM

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Yes.  High G is a mixed bag now with the new gravity rules.  Slightly less than 1/4 of the galaxy comes out high G (slightly more than 1/2 normal g, slightly less than 1/4 low g), so you are very limited in your colony selection because you get a penalty in normal G.  On the other hand, you get access to the biggest and richest planets.  Some people on the Steam forums think it should actually be a penalty pick.  I settled on 0 after playing a High G race and quickly running out of planets to colonize.  Do you think it should be worth a different amount?

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jasonwclark #4 Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:11 PM

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I love it! I'm in my first campaign since this went up in the official mods section, and enjoying all the tweaks. Especially the modifications to the tech tree for the endgame. It just feels like there is a purpose now, for continuing research past turn 350 (I typically play with all the "speed" settings on their defaults, and the normal research speed had me blowing through the tech tree pretty quickly in the vanilla game.)

 

I also tend to play the stock races more than custom, but the zero value pick for high G seems like an alright compromise for now. Although I do agree it stands out a bit as the only perk at zero in the list. The trade off value really depends on the galaxy set up you use, and how many high G planets that set up produces. I think there is an argument to be made for both +1 or -1, and I'm just not sure where it falls on the balance scale right now. 

 

The advantage we have is that all the mods are all together in one place now. So the custom race balance with perk costs, no longer has to operate in isolation. It is made to match all the other the modifications to the tech tree, and galaxy set up etc. So just as an example choosing a Huge Ultra-Rich homeworld doesn't default you to a High G homeworld start here, and that plays into whether High G makes sense as a positive or a negative cost for the package. I'd actually lean more towards a penalty -1 (just to have a perk cost consideration) but again that seems to depend entirely on how many High G worlds the galaxy set up is giving you. Most ultra-rich planets with a decent biome are now showing up High G, at sizes medium and above, so that is a definite change with the latest patches.  

 

I'm certain the 5X package will be adjusted in minor ways in the weeks to come, (and perhaps in major ways depending on the new official content that gets released) so having a version number for the mod package would be a good idea going forward. I'm not sure the extent to which a mod can be edited or revised, or if you simply have to put it up as a new mod, re-listed. If the latter is the case, I'd avoid updating it until it's really necessary to avoid confusion and give people a chance to settle in. Also not sure if you can actually delete an older version of a mod (I've seen many duplicates already which makes me think that might not be an option.) Right now what we need is just to have more people try it and provide balance feedback. Once that feedback is gathered, or if new official content is released that will affect the mod, you can put out a revision, change the thumbnail pic, call it version 1.2 or whatever to distinguish the updated package from older ones.

 

I think this thread should be the main place where we ask questions, or provide balance thoughts for now, and leave the old single mod threads in the past, since everything is operating as a complete 5X overhaul now, all the tweaks are connected. I'd keep it that way, even if some people only want one or two features, it's hard to accommodate everyone and still have a good way to play balance the changes. I think most people will want to play a major mod with a broad connected design vision, rather than just a few elements here and there. Even if people want to chop it up later to just pull out one thing they like and leave the rest behind, I'd let them mod that on their own, so you can focus on the big picture integration with all the parts working together.

 

So far I'm very pleased with the work that's been done here. Will return with more thoughts on balance when I have some more matches under my belt.

 

 



jasonwclark #5 Posted 13 November 2016 - 01:37 AM

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OK just nearing the end of my second trial campaign on the "Impossible" difficulty setting. Playing in a known galaxy, 1480 medium circle vs 5 opponents, to see how the machine is doing now as opposed to before. So far so good. I'm pretty pleased with the AI's population growth in the advanced starting age. It was fairly evenly distributed across the 5 opponents for much of the early game. I found I'm able to knock off the first rival with relative ease and start chipping away at a second before turn 100, (which is the heavy expansion phase for the AI), but while preoccupied with absorbing the population of those first rivals, the others were able to grow at a pretty steady pace. Somewhere between turn 100-200, the AI seems to shift gears a bit and begins developing its fleets and defenses to a more formidable degree. I think it would be difficult to keep up with AI's expansion in the early phase, were it not for ability to appropriate another factions' population via a quick steamroll. This is much faster and more expedient than trying to colonize at breakneck speed yourself, but there are some limits to how far you can take it. In my first match, launching a second simultaneous warfront to try and snatch up more early colonies this way resulted in me stalling out, unable to consolidate the gains before I started losing pops to orbital bombardment, and hitting the ceiling on command points. The orbital weapons platforms and bases seem to be pretty key for the AI to survive. Until the missile bases and orbital batteries go up, you can roll through and crush with a quickness. But after they go up, the process is more costly both in time and treasure (larger fleet sizes needed, and more command points needed to break the target worlds.) The early crush period comes to a pretty abrupt halt once the AI defenses are in place  I think the advanced start might be a bit easier than post warp, in terms of how the difficulty scales, since the AI has less time to colonize and you have your troop transports backed up that cruiser right out the gate. 

 

I haven't been able to totally determine how the colonization/expansion behavior of the AI breaks down on a race by race basis. Most seem pretty active early on, making a much steadier push than in earlier builds. Races like the Meklon, Sakkra and Klackons seem particularly keen on the colony blitz, and are fairly simple to overrun if you gun at them immediately. But while that allowed for early ascendancy, the other factions can catch up pretty quickly once they start going to war with one another.

 

I wouldn't say its "impossible" at this point, but it is more challenging than the vanilla "extreme" setting. I would suggest a difficulty setting name that is a bit more generic though, and perhaps less likely to deter players from using it for playbalancing feedback. Or something that suggests that this difficulty scale has been catered specifically to suit the Mod.

 

Money hasn't been a huge issue, but I was playing as humans so trade was a factor there. I did notice space ports not producing as much cash, +5 standard, but not the +1 per population bonus. Not sure if that was intentional. I'm having fun with it at any rate. Thanks again dude, for getting this stuff up!

 

Ps. if you put another version up, to address the spaceport thing or any other loose ends, I'd be fine to resubscribe and reactivate. That whole subscription and activation process is pretty simple. In the event that mod updating is not a feature they plan to include anytime soon, probably best to just do another, so it can climb up the subscription ladder like this one just did.

 

As for further suggestions, one thing I wish we could get rid of is the "audience request rejected" aspect of diplomacy. Any idea how this is handled with the reactions and if it can be addressed with a mod? There must be some kind of workaround for this. 

 

For a custom difficulty level specifically adapted to the Mod, I like a name like "5X Veteran" Or simply 5X. Where the 5X is eXpert, and indicates to the player that this level is considered to produce an ideal AI challenge with the other updated features in the mod. That way we can have a closer look at how the AI does under those conditions for a baseline.

 

 



jasonwclark #6 Posted 13 November 2016 - 09:21 AM

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I like the current "Impossible" setting, but its definitely scaled more towards the post-warp starting age. I've tried a few game starts now, and the AI is much easier to steam roll in advanced than it is in post warp. This has me thinking it might be cool to have a separate difficulty scale for the two starting ages. Like have one simply called "5X" (aimed at the post-warp balance) and then one called "5X Advanced" (aimed at the advanced start balance). Basically a mirror of the naming convention for the starting age, but also with the implicit idea that it's a more "advanced" AI (i.e. more difficult) than the regular 5X bonuses for the computer opponent. Both are generic enough names that they could be used in either age, but using a name like that would give an indication about which difficulty level will likely be satisfying for the associated starting age. 5X or 5xpert, 5X Veteran (whatever), for balanced play in Pre/Post-Warp, and "5X Advanced" for balanced play in the advanced age. Then you could go higher with the bonuses in the Advanced difficulty as desired, before it starts to really distort the gameplay overmuch in an Advanced start game.  Even if bonuses at that level would be extremely difficult if playing a post warp game, you could still try them there too if you were a masochist. Does something like that make sense?

 

The reality is that the core AI is just not balanced very well for the Advanced game to begin with, its easy to exploit early on, and if you want a challenge you really should be starting on post warp, but it seems kind of sad to just give up on the Advanced starting age all together. Sometimes the early build up can be tedius and you just want to dive right in. If the advanced starting age could be made more challenging with just a crazy AI boost it seems like that might be worth a shot to salvage it.

 



Spud_Dastardly #7 Posted 13 November 2016 - 01:59 PM

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View Postjasonwclark, on 13 November 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

 

I wouldn't say its "impossible" at this point, but it is more challenging than the vanilla "extreme" setting. I would suggest a difficulty setting name that is a bit more generic though, and perhaps less likely to deter players from using it for playbalancing feedback. Or something that suggests that this difficulty scale has been catered specifically to suit the Mod.

 

Money hasn't been a huge issue, but I was playing as humans so trade was a factor there. I did notice space ports not producing as much cash, +5 standard, but not the +1 per population bonus. Not sure if that was intentional. I'm having fun with it at any rate. Thanks again dude, for getting this stuff up!

 

Ps. if you put another version up, to address the spaceport thing or any other loose ends, I'd be fine to resubscribe and reactivate. That whole subscription and activation process is pretty simple. In the event that mod updating is not a feature they plan to include anytime soon, probably best to just do another, so it can climb up the subscription ladder like this one just did.

 

As for further suggestions, one thing I wish we could get rid of is the "audience request rejected" aspect of diplomacy. Any idea how this is handled with the reactions and if it can be addressed with a mod? There must be some kind of workaround for this. 

 

For a custom difficulty level specifically adapted to the Mod, I like a name like "5X Veteran" Or simply 5X. Where the 5X is eXpert, and indicates to the player that this level is considered to produce an ideal AI challenge with the other updated features in the mod. That way we can have a closer look at how the AI does under those conditions for a baseline.

Thanks for the feedback.  I only call it "impossible" because that's what the hardest difficulty was in MoO2 (and it wasn't too hard to beat there either).  I think the best thing to do for the advanced starting age would not be to create separate difficult levels but rather to tweak their starting conditions.  I could give the AI a full fleet to start with rather than just the four warships.  This would protect them against early rushes and help the focus on building things other than ships so they can grow faster.  On that note, MoO2's hardest starting age was definitely pre warp.  Advanced was like easy mode.  On pre warp their bonuses have a lot longer to build up and overwhelm you because you can't rush them, so maybe give a pre warp game a try.  One idea I'm toying with is expanding the "pre warp tech tree" a little bit so you have to research not one but more like 5 things before you hit the standard tech tree in order to make that starting age a little more distinct.

 

I'll be putting another version up after I have time to make some tweaks based on the feedback I've gotten so far.  Until then, you can get a version with the space port fixed on Nexus Mods (link in my signature).  I really hope they give the ability to update the mods properly because making everyone re-subscribe all the time means I'll be splitting subscribers around multiple versions and not everyone will be able to keep up.  Rather than make small tweaks, I'll only be able to do big releases.

 

I'll look for the "audience rejected" mechanic in the AI settings and see what I can do.  No promises though.  


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Summon3r #8 Posted 13 November 2016 - 04:49 PM

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fyi this/these mods are basically a must for this game if your still playing it

jasonwclark #9 Posted 13 November 2016 - 06:03 PM

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For sure! I recall the setting from MOO2, and the way the Advanced age played there pretty much the same way as it is in CtS. It's essentially handicapping the computer out of like 100 turns where they'd otherwise be pulling way ahead of you, which makes a full steamroll a lot easier. Would be nice if we could actually make it more challenging though on advanced, since it's kind of novel to start with access to a hull size larger than frigate or dd, and a jumpstart on the tech. I like your suggested approach of just tweaking the AI's starting forces instead. I think that would work, and probably simpler. Because even now, the AI does catch up after that first 100-150 turns, once they have enough warships camped out, it's just that the player has more ways to disrupt them immediately. I also like the expanded pre-warp idea, since in the current game it doesn't take very long to make that jump up to warp. I haven't really tried pre-warp in CtS that much, though I did enjoy it in MOO2, so I'll have another go.

 

I suppose a naming convention isn't really necessary, maybe just a "suggested settings" note in the mod description.

 

From a play balance perspective, for a good challenge, it might recommend a difficulty scale to starting age selection something like...

 

Pre-Warp: choose Very Hard 

Post-Warp: choose Extreme

Advanced: choose Impossible 

 

Not that everyone is looking for a grind that forces scrub reloads at each combat, but I think that is the measure for some when evaluating difficulty. So the final 3 tiers on the difficulty scale would basically align with the 3 standard starts, and if you want to go nuts just bump the level up on the difficulty scale for the earlier ages. For Advanced we could tweak the starting units there as you suggested, so the AI does well enough to be fun on "Impossible," since that is pretty much the ceiling on the difficulty scale. Unless you wanted to create another tier beyond that, but I can't imagine anyone really using it for the earlier starts, since "Impossible" is already impossible enough for those haha. Hyperadvanced already plays pretty well on that setting, owing to the larger starting fleets. Rush is sort of its own thing, I'd have to play a few more matches, but I think it scales pretty well on Extreme, since it's similar to Post Warp, just with a lot more colonies established in the first 20 turns.

 

Honestly the improvements of this mod are so substantial, I'd subscribe and resubscribe 20 times if I had too haha. This package really makes the game for me.  I definitely agree though, the inability to update Mods, and make that automatic for the subscribers seems like an oversight. 

 

I think most people appreciate that this is still a trial run, and any mod that makes such an impressive overhaul is bound to need some tweaking. There is other stuff in here too, that helps mitigate the lack of the spaceport bonus, so the economy in the mid game is still much improved from vanilla (with the maintenance revisions you already have in place). When that income bump comes back online, it will probably just be a nice surprise for those that haven't tried it yet.

 

Can't thank you enough for this one man. I'm having a lot of fun with it! 



diehardtwinsfan #10 Posted 14 November 2016 - 12:46 AM

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so, I'm giving this a run for the first time.  Couple of notes.  It's definitely improved in terms of tech, game play, etc. Not sure it's possible to have more either/or  choices on the tech, but the devs definitely didn't go far enough there.I do think the game would benefit from that.  Likewise, I did my first run on very hard just to give it a try, and no races have gone to war. I'm the only one going to war, and it's on my terms.  I don't know if that can be tweaked or not, but it seems that there's something that generally keeps the AI from attacking you. The vanilla version is definitely annoying in that you know you'll be attacked by someone by turn 50 (whether they should or not), but with the mod it seems as though it's the other way around.  This could be my own sample, but I played a huge circle galaxy and six of the 9 races (including myself) were on the same half of the galaxy. I'd have expected more fighting, not just with me, but with each other.

Spud_Dastardly #11 Posted 14 November 2016 - 02:01 AM

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View Postdiehardtwinsfan, on 14 November 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

so, I'm giving this a run for the first time.  Couple of notes.  It's definitely improved in terms of tech, game play, etc. Not sure it's possible to have more either/or  choices on the tech, but the devs definitely didn't go far enough there.I do think the game would benefit from that.  Likewise, I did my first run on very hard just to give it a try, and no races have gone to war. I'm the only one going to war, and it's on my terms.  I don't know if that can be tweaked or not, but it seems that there's something that generally keeps the AI from attacking you. The vanilla version is definitely annoying in that you know you'll be attacked by someone by turn 50 (whether they should or not), but with the mod it seems as though it's the other way around.  This could be my own sample, but I played a huge circle galaxy and six of the 9 races (including myself) were on the same half of the galaxy. I'd have expected more fighting, not just with me, but with each other.

 

I'm planning on moving a couple techs around, and I'll introduce a couple more choices to the tech tree.  The AI doesn't attack you if you have strong enough forces.  My guess is that more fighting isn't happening because of the stronger empire defenses.  Maybe I can tweak the AI to make them more aggressive.

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Spud_Dastardly #12 Posted 15 November 2016 - 08:27 AM

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Version 1.1 has been uploaded!  New changes include 

  • Minor bug fixes
  • New pre-warp technologies designed to make the pre-warp starting age more interesting
  • Slight race balance adjustments (thanks Exoclyps)
  • Moved a couple things around on the tech tree (thanks again Exoclyps)
  • Added a little easter egg in the game's text for the MoO2 veterans out there 
    Spoiler

     


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grahm_bert #13 Posted 17 November 2016 - 01:19 AM

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I have moo:cts v51.3 1.3.33428 and I'm trying to install your mod

i'm on gog so I can't use steam subscribe to mod

I've tried putting your 5x - the ultimate balance mod sub directory into both the  ....\MasterOfOrion_Data\StreamingAssets\GameplayData and in the ....\MasterOfOrion_Data\Modding without any success

 

game menu MODS says nothing in directory

and in the single/new game/customrace menu shows the standard game picks

 

Any suggestions

 


Edited by grahm_bert, 17 November 2016 - 01:32 AM.


Spud_Dastardly #14 Posted 17 November 2016 - 02:03 AM

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If you're on Windows, the 5X - The Ultimate Balance Mod folder should go in Documents\Master of Orion\Mods.

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Exoclyps #15 Posted 18 November 2016 - 09:18 AM

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Figured I'd drop some of my experience here from my two last game. Do keep in mind I only use this mod as a base with various slight tweaks of my own. I also use latest discussed Tech Tree layout.

 

First game, Young & Huge galaxy with 8 AI. Pre-Warp. Balanced Start unchecked.

My first game as Pre-Warp so I feel my performance was a bit lacking this round.

By turn 132 Terran got a lead with 71 population whereas Sakkra "only" has 60. Meklar is at 45 and myself is at 37.

At the bottom we had Klackon and Silicoid, both at 16 pop.

 

So with Terran almost twice my size I started to wonder if something was really messed up in the setup.


Something was messed up that's for sure. They started with a Tiny Gaia Rich and Tiny Terran Ultra-Rich in their system. Nearby they had access to a Medium Gaia Rich.

So no kidding they grew like weed. Unchecking the Balanced Start sure can mix things up. I gave up on that game after that to be honest.

 

Second Game

Actually can't remember if this was before the game above or after, just a short game in between it all. Nearby planets was boring so I restarted. But before that I noticed that the Silicoids had a huge amount of Frigates.

This got me thinking a bit. Combined with the reports of less wars and all that. And eh-ehm, I got a few ideas again for tweaks that could be made.

 

What about increasing the Command Points Cost for the cheaper ships slightly? Increase the cost on Frigate, Destroyer and Cruiser by 1 point each.
Would give this result:

Scout 1
Frigate 2
Destroyer 3
Cruiser 5
Battle Ship 7
Titan  10
Doom Star 15

 

This tweaking Command Points Costs and Ship Costs and the likes would also have an influence on Attack vs Defense, so that might need a slight tweaking in the long run. Haven't gotten that far into the game though so can't say more on that yet.

 

Third and present Game

Same setting as above. Turn 155 atm.

Population is very balanced. Ranging from 35 to 39. With Humans at 35, Alkari at 36. And me at 37... Meklar, Terran, Klackon and 2 unknown at 39. So I'd say we're on a good balance on growth here.

Score is slightly different. I'm #1 at 7k and Meklar at 6.5k. After that the low popers Alkari and Humans are actually at 6k.  This time Terran and Silicoids is at the bottom with 5.2k and 5.35k.

So even if Silicoids aren't that good on pop, they are still keeping up decently on the score. If they spent a little more energy on Colonizing rather than building armies then they would probably be a lot higher up. Up in the north I got Meklar at 7 with Silicoids at 3 star systems.

 

In terms of pollution, I've had no issues so far and actually enjoy the slight tackle of maximizing my populations performance. +Production races might have a slight higher issue, but both of them are competive in points so far. Meklar at 6.5k and Klackon at 5.7k.

 

I'll report back as I go!



Laegad #16 Posted 18 November 2016 - 12:46 PM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 12 November 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

My mega mod is finally available on Nexus Mods

 

Tanks for this !

If i have the choice, i buy my game on GoG because of DRM... i really hate this (Steam is a big DRM).

And Steam prevent me to download mod if i have not the game from them,

They prevent me to upload mod too if i have not the game !.. this is stupid but this is their choice... i made some mod for an other game (age of wonder 3), and they are on nexus for this reason.

 

View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 12 November 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

  • Population no longer generated pollution so you aren't penalized for having bigger, better planets.

 

I think they are right when they made pollution depends on population,

But perhaps they forget to add this rule : A large planet should "need" more pollution before its biome degrade (and need more resource to be terraformed too)

Simply because the planet is bigger : Larger planet = More pollution amount to degrade it.

In game mecanism perhaps this could be done by % resistance agains pollution, and this % depends on planet size.

(and the price for building for pollution reduction should depends of the planet size too...)

 

IMO, pollution should not depends on production:

A planet with high production capability could means mineral or metal are easier to collect,

So its also means that with equal pollution than 'low mineral' planet, you produce more.

IMO, pollution should be linked to population level, and (perhaps) not linked to mineral classification (that it is if it is linked to production level).

 

(and if i put something wrong here, sorry.. i don't played mmo since 3 or 4 patch... not the time... i know there is a new pollution system but i not "tested" it yet)


Edited by Laegad, 18 November 2016 - 01:06 PM.


Spud_Dastardly #17 Posted 18 November 2016 - 01:09 PM

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Thanks for sharing your experience Exoclyps.  I don't have time to play entire games, so I find this helpful.  I like the command point economy the way it is.  My mod gives a space and HP buff to destroyers and cruisers so that the benefit of choosing them over a frigate is greater.

 

Laegad,  I disagree with your assessment.  Because pollution hurts your food output, having any amount of pollution is suboptimal.  Pollution should be kept at 0 if managed properly, and so pollution capacity of the planet is effectively meaningless under the new system.  Because of this, having population generate pollution means that larger planets have a smaller maximal production output than smaller planets.  If pollution did not depend on production at all, then there would be no way to reduce it when it starts building up on your planet since they got rid of pollution clean up.  I think if you tried the new system out for yourself, you would see these issues. 


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Exoclyps #18 Posted 18 November 2016 - 01:46 PM

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Yeah, I'm probably overthinking it with the Command Points. Part of my logic was to make Frigates more expensive than scouts and the rest to set them apart, but yeah, they aren't that strong after all.

 

Not that long of a game yet though, in terms of playtime. At turn 212 now. Meklar is running away in population, which I imagine is due to all their colonies.

They are at 96 pop with me at 2nd with 78. 13 vs 11 systems. Tuning down their tendency to expand could possibly balance that out. But then again, it'd make the player grow away so perhaps not the right path?

 

If you'd be interested in the score. Could be good for data. ((Yeah, I won't bother you about making Cybernetic cheaper anymore. I still want a 8 point -50% consumption trait though xD))

Spoiler

 

I still think that increasing the average population growth for Silicoid slightly would do good for them as they always tend to be on the lower end on my games. While for example Terran did perform a lot better in another game of mine.

 

Laegad, Pollution is sort linked to population, as the population is causing it (when they create production). Richer planets do indeed create a bit more pollution than poorer, but atm there really is no way around that. And having population  cause it the way it does without the mod won't work as they cause it even if they are scientists on strike.


Edited by Exoclyps, 18 November 2016 - 01:47 PM.


Spud_Dastardly #19 Posted 18 November 2016 - 04:35 PM

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#1 in population with a -20% population growth penalty.  Must be because of colony spam.  If you really want, I'll add in that -50% consumption trait.  I'll even add in a -25% consumption for -4 too.  

 

As for the Lithovore growth rate, do keep in mind that they are supposed to have the lowest population, hence why I gave them -20% population growth.  I see that they are in the middle in terms of conquest and score, and I'd be interested to see how they're doing technologically and economically in that game.  Part of the problem is the AI not prioritizing colonizing the right planets, and some of it is just dumb luck for the Silicoids since they're heavy G and might not start by many rich planets.  Maybe try out a Lithovore race yourself without a population growth penalty and see if you keep up with the other races in population.  Heavy G is a good pick for that since you get all of the richest planets.


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Exoclyps #20 Posted 19 November 2016 - 12:19 AM

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I really like the -50% consumption trait. It strikes a good balance between MoO:CtS and MoO2 where I used to play Lithovore with heavy housing focus to quickly maximize my population.

 

The problem is that my current build I cannot afford 10 points for Cybernetic and quite frankly, the 10% repair bonus does not fit the idea of my custom race to begin with, hence why I always wanted a 8 point -50% consumption trait. For now I took the easy way out and modified Cybernetic to 8, but it is after all a slight cheating as I kinda give myself the repair trait for free, whereas I don't actually even want it.

 

Actually what I was interested in seeing was an increase in population growth on the poorer planets, while keeping the rich as good. Shouldn't make a huge difference for the player, unless they fanatically spams colony ships to take every single planet... which I suppose isn't completely out of question when you can leave the planets to them self essentially as a lithovore. Just wanted a way to buff the AI that wouldn't effect the player. But then again, Silicoid had like 3 or maybe 4 systems if I recall correctly, they really need more growth on that end.

 

I tend to remove the economic and science victory to make sure that the game ends on my terms, but I suppose I could modify the tech tree for my next game to remove the science victory buildings, and as such I can keep that victory without the worry of the game ending prematurely. The extra intel is always fun as well.







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