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Elerian mind control option

elerian mind control

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Ozymandyus #1 Posted 03 December 2016 - 06:59 PM

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So I built my first fleet with a cruiser, and went forth to merrily assault my enemies.  Problem is, I'm not getting any option to mind control the planet.  How does that work?  Some kind of tech I'm missing?

Spud_Dastardly #2 Posted 03 December 2016 - 07:10 PM

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You need to have a battleship or larger in your fleet to mind control.

Get 5X - The Ultimate Balance Mod on Steam or on Nexus Mods!

 


Ozymandyus #3 Posted 03 December 2016 - 07:59 PM

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Thanks, Spud!

Renard_Wellnitz #4 Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:42 PM

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I noticed that the mind control doesn't work when using a custom race. The attack colony button is red and can be clicked. But clicking on it doesn't do anything.

Doctor_Psilon #5 Posted 05 December 2016 - 12:08 AM

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I find the mind control option to be completely OP. You literally get a full size colony instantaneously (full pop, all buildings, everything) with no assimilation wait and no need for troop transports. In my first game as the Elerians, I was conquering entire systems in one turn by just sending a fleet to each planet in the system, easily wiping out the defenses and then clicking the mind control button. I conquered the entire klackon empire consisting of about 6 systems in like 10 turns. It was crazy. I feel like there needs to be some limit on the mind control option so that it is not a "press here to win the game" button. 

jasonwclark #6 Posted 05 December 2016 - 11:25 PM

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I agree, it is extremely powerful.

 

One idea I had was to make the chance of success based on a simple percentage. 

 

Like 33% for a successful mind control against a normal race. Maybe 50% if they're uncreative bugs and lizards. This would at least present some situations where marines would be useful. It would be interesting if the player had to choose between mind control or direct invasion, where a failed mind control means your invasion would be stalled for a turn. Something to slow em down a bit. As it stands there is little reason to invest in military transports once you're fielding battleships. 

 

Another idea would be to attach the mind control ability to some really massive "mental projector" weapons system, that takes up like all the hull space on a battleship. So if you wanted to use this ability you'd have to make an investment in a specialized Mind Control ship, that can't just double as a kick ass combat vessel too. That way you'd have to plan for this sort of warfare in advance and pony up the required cash, make some sacrifices to accomodate the huge Mind Control weapon. 

 

I think the Mind Control weapon system should be at least as large as augmented engines, maybe even larger. That way the Mind Control battleship would require that other onboard weapons be considerably nerfed, at a trade off level comparable to what you gain from a mind control take-over, which is huge. 

 

I'd also like to see a defensive structure that can help mitigate the effects somewhere in the tech tree. Like a Mind Control shield, that reduces the odds of a successful take over once built.

 

Just posted the idea over on steam. I don't know, maybe it could be modded somehow.

 

At the current power, it seems like the Mind Control attack would fit better at the Titan level, so you have some reason to use marines for a bit.

 

 



Doctor_Psilon #7 Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:51 AM

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View Postjasonwclark, on 05 December 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

I agree, it is extremely powerful.

 

One idea I had was to make the chance of success based on a simple percentage. 

 

Like 33% for a successful mind control against a normal race. Maybe 50% if they're uncreative bugs and lizards. This would at least present some situations where marines would be useful. It would be interesting if the player had to choose between mind control or direct invasion, where a failed mind control means your invasion would be stalled for a turn. Something to slow em down a bit. As it stands there is little reason to invest in military transports once you're fielding battleships. 

 

Another idea would be to attach the mind control ability to some really massive "mental projector" weapons system, that takes up like all the hull space on a battleship. So if you wanted to use this ability you'd have to make an investment in a specialized Mind Control ship, that can't just double as a kick ass combat vessel too. That way you'd have to plan for this sort of warfare in advance and pony up the required cash, make some sacrifices to accomodate the huge Mind Control weapon. 

 

I think the Mind Control weapon system should be at least as large as augmented engines, maybe even larger. That way the Mind Control battleship would require that other onboard weapons be considerably nerfed, at a trade off level comparable to what you gain from a mind control take-over, which is huge. 

 

I'd also like to see a defensive structure that can help mitigate the effects somewhere in the tech tree. Like a Mind Control shield, that reduces the odds of a successful take over once built.

 

Just posted the idea over on steam. I don't know, maybe it could be modded somehow.

 

At the current power, it seems like the Mind Control attack would fit better at the Titan level, so you have some reason to use marines for a bit.

 

 

 

All great ideas. I also think that the Meklars should be immune to the mind control since they are cybernetic. After all, you can't mind control a machine.

Ozymandyus #8 Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:40 PM

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It's a powerful option, but comes at the cost of most other picks.  Also, with it only becoming available in late mid-game (due to battleship restriction), it just becomes a matter of strategy.  If you're facing a race with this ability, better hit them early and often....keeping in the back of your mind the fact that the game will change immensely once they're able to field a battleship.

Exoclyps #9 Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:19 PM

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The Mind Control option is fine imo. It's just that the Elerians are getting waaaay to many points and need a few drawbacks, like their feudal from MoO2

jasonwclark #10 Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:10 PM

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I'll admit in MOO2 they weren't at the top of my list. I used their model for custom races, but didn't usually play as the default Elerians, because I like the exploration part of the game and omniscience does away with it. But I think Telepathy could be fun. 

 

Right now the trade off is pretty skewed. The ability to mind control is way better than the best ground attack bonus combos. Warlord+Militarist costs 7 for example, but Telepathy has that combo beat by a mile in the mid game, and costs a point less. Why face enemy marines when you can mind control them, instantly assimilate, and snatch up a security/diplomacy bonus while you're at it?

 

And with the default Elerians there is no research handicap on the way to developing your battleships, to offset the crazy powerful mind control attack you get when you achieve the battleship level.

 

The default Elerian race is clearly designed to be pretty overpowered, and I don't mind that so much, since usually they'll be an AI opponent. But still, the Elerians are meta game master right now, with no malus.

 

The 5X approach of de-coupling all the individual telepathic abilities makes sense. Even there, instant assimilation at 3 and Mind Control at 3, seems pretty potent for a total cost of 6 points, even without the omniscience and security/diplomacy bonus bundled into it.

 

I do think mind control would be more interesting from a gameplay perspective as a weapons system that scales with hull size, rather than a battleship exclusive.

 

 



Exoclyps #11 Posted 07 December 2016 - 03:47 AM

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Well, the ground combat vs mind control issue is partly there due to the lack of ship-combat. If that was retrofitted then things would be way more balanced. I think for now we might just have to deal with the fact that ground combat bonuses are a bit over-priced. Because quite frankly, it does not take long to get troop transports put together, I'm able to pull out like 20 a turn from a good colony (with the 5X mod that increase the limit), so not sure it is actually worth 3 points to me to be able to skip that minor part. Even if mind-control itself is a cool feature though!

 

Assimilation though is very strong, but then again also quite situational. For me it would mean I could retrofit a colony I actually don't need a bit faster, again not 3 points I would spend since I'd rather spend it elsewhere. Perhaps in a playstyle where you wanna go and conquer planets early is a more suited playstyle, but then again, assimilating normally here wouldn't take that long, now would it? Still a strong trait at this time.



Skydance504 #12 Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:17 AM

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Instant Assimilation is insanely powerful, because it means your fleet can blitz through a region of space capturing an entire race within a few turns. We can talk about the cost of the Race Pick, but they can offset the cost by choosing Low Gravity population and being weak in Ground Combat. Of course, they also get the bonus of being able to focus their tech on Fleet Combat (without needing any Ground Combat research) and using their newly conquered Races with Normal / High Gravity to colonize other planets.

 

My opinion on "balancing" the Ability is to make Instant Assimilation require you to keep the Ship in orbit. As soon as your Battleship moves on, the normal Assimilation mechanic takes over. You still gain the benefit of instant "ground combat" success (all the defenders turn over their weapons without a fight), but you need to make a choice of how long you keep the ship in orbit to delay the normal Assimilation ,,, possibly forever, as a defensive ship.

 

Of course, a Psi-capable ship could instantly retake the planet if it was nearby, so Assimilation isn't as risky as it is with most races.


Edited by Skydance504, 07 December 2016 - 06:18 AM.


Exoclyps #13 Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:30 AM

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Good catch on the ground combat there. One way to fix that is to make Mind Control and Ground Combat bonuses mutually exclusive so you can't pick a negative ground combat trait.

jasonwclark #14 Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:47 AM

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Ok this is a bit unrelated, but I just realized that Elerian/Omniscient scouts don't have an auto-explore option.

 

I honestly can't recall whether auto-explore always turns off once the entire galaxy is explored, usually at that point in the game it isn't an issue, but for the Elerians or a custom Omniscient race, it makes finding anomolies a chore.

 

I guess that is a malus for Omniscience right now, if they can't auto-explore on the hunt for lost treasure, tech, or pops, their starting scouts on post warp or advanced aren't very useful.

 

 



Roa_D #15 Posted 12 December 2016 - 02:53 AM

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Well maybe have it so they can only mind control from a doom star. You ether destroy em or assimilate em.

Laegad #16 Posted 12 December 2016 - 11:57 AM

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View PostExoclyps, on 07 December 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Good catch on the ground combat there. One way to fix that is to make Mind Control and Ground Combat bonuses mutually exclusive so you can't pick a negative ground combat trait.

Ok, but a race with the mind control perk could be attacked on its homes world.



Exoclyps #17 Posted 12 December 2016 - 12:16 PM

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Good point. I suppose it's just best to leave it as is. Besides, there is no negative combat bonus in an unmodded game anyways if I recall correctly.

Laegad #18 Posted 12 December 2016 - 12:16 PM

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As it is actually done, i don't really like the mind control system.

 

The system should take account :

- Population. A large population should be harder to be controlled than a simple outpost.

- Fleet size. A large Elerian fleet should have better chance of success than a lesser one.

- Eventually, some perk or technologies should up or down the % of mind control success.

- Elerian should still have a reason to use conventional attack (in order to increase their chance of mind control success) even if they can try a mind control attack.

 

Also, the direct mind control from a fleet should be splited for the immediat assimilation perk. Here i speak only about the direct mind control ability.

This perk split is a problem of lot of perk in the game, but it is moddable (and it is modded) so it is not a problem.

 

I would like to see something like that :

 

with { Frigate=0, Destroyer=1, Cruiser=2, Battleship=3, Titan=4, Doomstar=5 } You sum the ships values of the fleet and you have an attack power.

You have a defense power = { Population of the planet + marines }

Eventually, some race perk can:

- Increase attack (a mind control more powerfull as a perk ?) or

- Increase the defense (a race hard to control ?)

Eventually, some technologies could

- Increase attack (a mind control amplifier, mounted on a ship for a flat bonus ?) or

- Increase defense (a planatary mind control shield ?)

 

Well, you have an attack and a defense values... Then run the program used for ground combat with these values to see if the attack fail or succeed.

 

With this system, a large planet require a large fleet to be mind controled, and elerein should use some conventional means to capture these planet (bombs ?);

So a large planet can be mind controlled, but perhaps not at 100% of its capability.

Mind control is always powerfull, but a little less OP.

 

(Sorry if i have written some error... i didn't play elerien in MOO4 yet.... but i remember how it was in MOO2, and a look on forums make me think it is the same system in both versions)


Edited by Laegad, 12 December 2016 - 01:08 PM.


fencewalker #19 Posted 07 January 2017 - 10:55 AM

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it's not mind control, they just make sense. i obey by controlling my own mind, won't u do the same?

Shoikan_Reloaded #20 Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:13 PM

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Agreed, there should be some kind of cooldown for the ability (a couple dozen of turns) or it shouldn't be allowed to be used an infinite number of times, every ship should have one use and it shouln't grant a 100% guaranteed success.

 

Regards






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