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Terran's building really weak Titan's & they own Orion Tech


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Strider__2020 #1 Posted 25 October 2017 - 07:30 AM

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Terran's started to build Titan's and they only had 48 Attack Rating and 2200 Defense Rating.  In comparison mine were like 800 attack rating and around 2200 Defense Rating.  Humans are were around 700 and Klackons are 1k attack rating on titans. 

 

Strange thing is the Terrans own a quarter of the galaxy and took out 2 civ's and gained orion tech deathray and best armor.  Haven't fought them yet so don't know what stuff they got on them but I guess that's possible if he only put specials that took up a huge amount of space and point defense.  Practically anything else and he'd be over 100 rating atleast.  Done upgrades on them since then and still only 78 attack rating.  Might be using that stasis special you get from Orion that takes up like 350 space.

 

I noticed the AI tends to use alot of the high space specials and a splattering of weapons.  They don't seem to ever compete with my straight defense type specials  and 1 weapon type with point defense.



Spud_Dastardly #2 Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:23 AM

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Assuming you're using 5X, Terrans will put black hole generator on their titans. Attack rating doesn't take that into account. Maybe I should reduce the space on that? Have you seen how their fleets perform in combat with those black hole generators?

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Strider__2020 #3 Posted 26 October 2017 - 02:12 AM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 26 October 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

Assuming you're using 5X, Terrans will put black hole generator on their titans. Attack rating doesn't take that into account. Maybe I should reduce the space on that? Have you seen how their fleets perform in combat with those black hole generators?

 

I was just thinking same thing about reducing the space on those.    I'm using 5x and fighting terran's but only had 1 really big battle with about all there ships.  Was supposedly evenly matched but I didn't even suffer a casualty and I don't think I even took much dmg at all.   Didn't really notice the black hole generator in fight.

 

This titan has 75 attack and using Battle Pods, Heavy Armor, Black Hole Generator, Hard Shield, Lightning Field, Automated Repair Unit.   He only has room for 16 PD Phasors, 4 fusion bombs, 2 bomber bays, 1 ion pulse, 1 death ray, 2 guass cannon.  They use so many specials there is no room for actual dmg weapons.   BH is something I never did like to use even back in MOO2 cause it took up so much space.   If you lower the space though it will kinda help the human player more though.

 

My titan layout as of now is usually Battle Pods, Reinforced Hull, Heavy Armor, Multiwave ECM, Multi-Phased Shields, Automated repair unit, Hard shields, Intertial Stabilizer.  Gives me good protection alot of space for 20 PD phasors, 2 Neutro Bombs, 14 Plasma Torpedo's and 11 Heavy Fighter Bays.    Pretty much tear thru anything the AI has now.

 

I just did one vrs one with my titan of 1100 attack rating and his titan of 75 ar (turrned off my weapons).      He does use the BH but other than that he doing like 0 dmg.  I think a fully loaded frigate / destroyer could kill him at this point.     Titan's move so slow that BHG isn't really that useful.   Maybe if you lowered there space requirements to around 200 they might be useful.  I don't do pvp though so don't know if that's too unbalancing for multiplayer.

 

It kinda put a halt to Terran's path of devastation thru the galaxy after they took Orion and started making alot of titan's.  There fleets getting beat by other AI's with 800-1k ar on titan's.   I figured I lost for sure when they took Orion on top of already being way ahead but now they pretty much dead and mopping up last of there colonies.

 

IMO though for something that doesn't do actual dmg (even with the freezing weapon use), the space req is too high for AI's to use properly.  Maybe 1 or 2 ships in your fleet could use but not for a main layout like AI is doing.  Does AI use multiple layouts for same class ship?  I like to use Missile specials of missile ships and laser specials for laser ships.  but the AI's just seems to have 1 layout of mix of everything.

 

Space probably isn't really the issue as much as if the AI used them properly with making more dmg based titan's as well.   Lowering the space might be too OP for human players :)

 

I think an AI that takes orion should do a good beam dmg layout to use Death Ray properly.  My last game I took orion and did Battle scanner , Structural Analyzer , High energy focus  and range master unit. with the defensive specialties and alot of DR's and phasor pd's and slaughtered pretty much everything.


Edited by Strider__2020, 26 October 2017 - 03:46 AM.


Spud_Dastardly #4 Posted 26 October 2017 - 09:12 AM

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One of the things that's killing space is the auto repair units. Their space requirement grows like crazy the more you raise the hull class. The thing is, an auto repair unit on a frigate is just as good as one on a titan (in combat at least) as ships with it repair other ships by a fixed percentage, so currently you can just make a swarm of frigates with it and repair all of your ships but for a titan it takes up 104 space (compared to 10 for a frigate). So I'm setting that to a fixed space around 60, which is about what it takes on a cruiser. 

 

BHG definitely isn't as good as it was in MoO2 when it destroyed any ship in 2 turns. 350 space seems high. Maybe 200 to 250 is the right range. That does free up the Guardian's space as well though, so it'll make it harder to take Orion which I suppose offers some balance against the lessened space cost. 

 

The Terrans' lightning field should be making short work of your heavy fighters. Lightning field does 9999 damage to any fighters/missiles it hits, so I'd say it's an ideal special for them given that you have 11 heavy fighter bays on your titans. Hard shields gives them defense vs particle beams since it blocks shield penetration, which I consider to be necessary (every AI titan blueprint has it if the AI researches it). The other specials you listed are low space requirement of course, so aside from reducing space on the BHD and ARU, I don't think other changes are necessary, and it should free up some weapon space for them.

 

There is one other thing I may have messed up. There's an AI personality setting called "heavyArmy," which I interpreted to mean some factor used to determine how many ships they were going to build. That appears to be wrong actually, and that setting seems to set how inclined the AI is to build big ships vs small ships. The Terrans have it set to 9 (where 10 is the maximum), so it's not surprising they aren't building anything but titans. If I lower that setting, they should come up with more balanced fleets which should help their DPS when they get BHG.

 

As for your question, the AI uses only one blueprint template per ship size. The game just isn't set up for the AI to be adaptable to each situation, so their ships tend to have a more broad layout. That said, I did try to make at least some races have some particular "strategy" for designing ships, like how the Mrrshan take advantage of their beam attack by not using so many missiles/torps and focusing on beams (with specials to match), and they will prefer to choose things like high energy focus and hyper x capacitors. Not every race is so specialized, but there are definite preferences among them (e.g. some races use fighters and some don't, and those that do will prefer to research heavy fighter bays unlike those who don't). 

 

Terrans prefer cannons on their frigates (blitzer profile), beams/missiles on their destroyers (normal profile), cannons/beams on their cruisers (blitzer), missiles on their battleships (sniper), beams/cannons/fighters on titans (normal) with appropriate specials for each (battleships get fast missile racks, dauntless guidance, etc and titans get high energy focus, hyper x capacitors, etc when available). 

 

Anyway, hopefully I can get this all sorted out in the next update. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.


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Strider__2020 #5 Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:32 AM

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View PostSpud_Dastardly, on 26 October 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

One of the things that's killing space is the auto repair units. Their space requirement grows like crazy the more you raise the hull class. The thing is, an auto repair unit on a frigate is just as good as one on a titan (in combat at least) as ships with it repair other ships by a fixed percentage, so currently you can just make a swarm of frigates with it and repair all of your ships but for a titan it takes up 104 space (compared to 10 for a frigate). So I'm setting that to a fixed space around 60, which is about what it takes on a cruiser. 

 

BHG definitely isn't as good as it was in MoO2 when it destroyed any ship in 2 turns. 350 space seems high. Maybe 200 to 250 is the right range. That does free up the Guardian's space as well though, so it'll make it harder to take Orion which I suppose offers some balance against the lessened space cost. 

 

The Terrans' lightning field should be making short work of your heavy fighters. Lightning field does 9999 damage to any fighters/missiles it hits, so I'd say it's an ideal special for them given that you have 11 heavy fighter bays on your titans. Hard shields gives them defense vs particle beams since it blocks shield penetration, which I consider to be necessary (every AI titan blueprint has it if the AI researches it). The other specials you listed are low space requirement of course, so aside from reducing space on the BHD and ARU, I don't think other changes are necessary, and it should free up some weapon space for them.

 

There is one other thing I may have messed up. There's an AI personality setting called "heavyArmy," which I interpreted to mean some factor used to determine how many ships they were going to build. That appears to be wrong actually, and that setting seems to set how inclined the AI is to build big ships vs small ships. The Terrans have it set to 9 (where 10 is the maximum), so it's not surprising they aren't building anything but titans. If I lower that setting, they should come up with more balanced fleets which should help their DPS when they get BHG.

 

As for your question, the AI uses only one blueprint template per ship size. The game just isn't set up for the AI to be adaptable to each situation, so their ships tend to have a more broad layout. That said, I did try to make at least some races have some particular "strategy" for designing ships, like how the Mrrshan take advantage of their beam attack by not using so many missiles/torps and focusing on beams (with specials to match), and they will prefer to choose things like high energy focus and hyper x capacitors. Not every race is so specialized, but there are definite preferences among them (e.g. some races use fighters and some don't, and those that do will prefer to research heavy fighter bays unlike those who don't). 

 

Terrans prefer cannons on their frigates (blitzer profile), beams/missiles on their destroyers (normal profile), cannons/beams on their cruisers (blitzer), missiles on their battleships (sniper), beams/cannons/fighters on titans (normal) with appropriate specials for each (battleships get fast missile racks, dauntless guidance, etc and titans get high energy focus, hyper x capacitors, etc when available). 

 

Anyway, hopefully I can get this all sorted out in the next update. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I wondered about those repair specials if they did repair other vehicles in combat.  That's good to know.   As far as Terran's making only titan's I didn't really notice that if you thought I was saying that.  I just noticed when they started making titan's they were weaker.   They had quite a bit of other ships but don't know how many of those were before they could make titans.   Well hopefully with those lower space req they will have more dmg on there titan's.  It kinda gimped them when taking orion should of made them stronger.

 

Along those lines I was thinking of eliminating either orion planet or the orion tech u gain from capturing orion even before this last game.  Cause if I capture it, it kinda makes the game much easier for me.  Any ideas on easy way to do that?   Maybe keeping the planet but disabling the orion tech. 

 

Won my last game with scientific victory on extreme.    Was a smooth game.



Spud_Dastardly #6 Posted 28 October 2017 - 12:53 AM

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You could easily disable the Orion tech with a mod. In TechTree.yaml find the orion tech node and delete the techs from the "unlocks:" section (but you have to actually keep the "unlocks:" line itself).

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Strider__2020 #7 Posted 28 October 2017 - 09:25 AM

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Cool thx




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