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Lets be honest MOO1 and 2 combat sucked


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Harper73 #1 Posted 25 February 2016 - 06:36 AM

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I can see where the developers get the idea that tactical combat is not that important. MOO1 and MOO2 combat honest is kind of boring.
 
Let me give a few points:
When combat started you are already in range of all heavy weapons and missiles
When you get high enough tech who ever had the first shot normally one because each ship could take out another ship with 1 shot.
SIZE mattered unless you had WAY higher tech.
Once you got plasma cannons it was pretty much over.
One the main map screen you would chase around a fleet or would have the fleet chase around you.
Sometime the battles got so big it would TAKE FOREVER to finish them and again it would still come down to who had the first shot.
 
Where I do think the developers could make this game better is thinking of a way to make tactical combat strategic BUT also at the same time enjoyable.
 
 
 


JamieK81 #2 Posted 25 February 2016 - 06:40 AM

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I quite liked MoO2 combat, i mean, unlike most other players i tended to just use beam cannons exclusively, no missiles, torpedoes...nothing, just phasers and bombs for bombarding the colonies, i tend to auto all the battles since as you say, it takes FOREVER to end and i will likely do the same in this game until the combat can be fleshed out and more polished.

Demandred848 #3 Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:40 AM

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I thought Moo 1 was a ton of fun to fight in. Was always hilarious to fly up to a stack of hundreds of little ships and black hole half of them into oblivion instantly!

 

Moo2 was pretty good, until late game when you have fleets of 20, 30, 40, or more titans and doom stars fighting in each battle. It got absurdly tedious and annoying controlling each individual ship.

 

There is a fine line to be walked, what I have seen so far of the combat in the new one, while it looks and sounds cool, seems pretty lame. But I sure as hell have no interest in microing every single ship constantly.

We are still in pretty early stages. Hopefully things will get introduced to improve things.



Moo4 #4 Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:55 AM

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Early MoO2 battles >  Most of MoO1 battles > Late MoO2  battles

 

Stacks worked really well and I still think they have potential in both turn based and real time scenarios.  I hope to give constructive feed back during EA on those points.  

 

A lot of the other issues the OP brings up were just balance items that were fixed in mods and fan patches (initiative, size of ships and plasma cannons)


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NinjaLA #5 Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:59 AM

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I think sucked is a bit too harsh of a term (especially considering the thousands of hours I've played both games) but they had severe drawbacks (moo1 + black hole generator is the only way to win once the AI has 20000 fighters in a stack)  (moo2 absurdly long combats where victory is decided by who gets initiative first and who can fire the heftiest gun.)   the strategy came in from learning which weapons you'd constantly dominate the AI by using.

 

I really like where they are going with it right now..  once the balance is right for time spent in battle vs how much direct control of ships you have I think this will probably be the best of all MoOs 



Lucian667 #6 Posted 25 February 2016 - 08:57 AM

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Er no, MOO 1 combat was great. MOO 2 combat was even better. Not perfect, but compared to what we currently have MOO 2 was deep, fun, interesting, combat was about more than just sitting there and passively watching and your tactical decisions mattered. I wonder if we'll ever see those days again where thought and clever gameplay trumped casual appeal? Apparently not with MOO 4.

Anguille_1 #7 Posted 25 February 2016 - 09:59 AM

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I disagree. I play every battles in MOO1 and MOO2 because they are fun and don't finish after 10-15 seconds. While i generally prefer MOO1, the battles in MOO2 are the best and challenging.

 

 


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Playing MOO Conquer the Stars on GOG Galaxy

 

4x space game CV: Master of Orion, Master of Orion II, Master of Orion III, Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain, Reach for the Stars, Imperium Galactica, Imperium Galactica II, Armada 2526, Distant Worlds, Star Ruler I and II, Endless Space, Horizon, Stardrive, Stradrive II, Sword of the Stars, Sword of the Stars II, Galactic Civilization I - III, LotBS, Lost Empires: Immortals, Space Empires IV and V, Starships Unlimited, Star Wars: Empire at War, Star Wars: Rebellio, Birth of the Federation and Stellaris.


bzep666 #8 Posted 25 February 2016 - 03:22 PM

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 MOO2 combat is what kept me playing it all these years. Where is the minus 1 button?

Mikko_M #9 Posted 25 February 2016 - 03:39 PM

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MOO 2`s combat would most likely have been the best ever in a 4X space game, if the turns only had been simultaneous, but even in its original form it still easily beats most of the more modern 4X games out there.  :)

Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


Moo4 #10 Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:28 PM

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Simultaneous MoO2 combat turns with giving orders to ~4-8 groups (stacks) of ships.

 

Is that too much to ask for?  :)


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JamieK81 #11 Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:43 PM

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View PostAnguille_1, on 25 February 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

I disagree. I play every battles in MOO1 and MOO2 because they are fun and don't finish after 10-15 seconds. While i generally prefer MOO1, the battles in MOO2 are the best and challenging.

 

 

 

So, are you telling me, if you and the AI enemy had 20-30 ships, you would use each one to take out each of the other's ships? it would take a long time and while MoO2 combat was cool and perfect in the early game, but once you have loads of ships, it becomes tedious.

 

In this regard, real-time is preferable.



RayFowler #12 Posted 25 February 2016 - 05:39 PM

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View PostHarper73, on 25 February 2016 - 12:36 AM, said:

I can see where the developers get the idea that tactical combat is not that important. MOO1 and MOO2 combat honest is kind of boring.
 
Let me give a few points:
When combat started you are already in range of all heavy weapons and missiles
When you get high enough tech who ever had the first shot normally one because each ship could take out another ship with 1 shot.
SIZE mattered unless you had WAY higher tech.
Once you got plasma cannons it was pretty much over.
One the main map screen you would chase around a fleet or would have the fleet chase around you.
Sometime the battles got so big it would TAKE FOREVER to finish them and again it would still come down to who had the first shot..

 

You're not describing MOO1 combat at all. I've crossed out everything in your list that do not apply to MOO1

Edited by RayFowler, 25 February 2016 - 05:40 PM.

Master of Orion fan since 1993

HsojVvad #13 Posted 25 February 2016 - 10:57 PM

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If we are being honest, I loved MOO and MOO 2 combat. Had so much fun playing MOO combat and MOO2 was good as well.

 

I LOVED customizing my ships and then using them in battle made a difference. Hopefully it will be the same for MOO Five.



ElderMoo #14 Posted 26 February 2016 - 09:43 PM

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Let's be honest, you're wrong.

BoydofZINJ #15 Posted 26 February 2016 - 09:55 PM

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There are reasons why games made today try to compare themselves to MOO1 and 2....  

Think about that!

HsojVvad #16 Posted 26 February 2016 - 09:58 PM

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Having only played a few turns right now and having 5 combats with the beginner ship, I got to say combat is really boring right now with RTS. Does it get better? With a weak ship, I had more fun in MOO and MOO 2 than I am right now.

 


 

So in my opinion with limited playing, right now, MOO and MOO 2 combat is so much better than MOO CtS.



CptJStank #17 Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:17 AM

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Combat should look more like this! 

 

http://giant.gfycat.com/ShrillSeveralBlackandtancoonhound.gif



Lucian667 #18 Posted 27 February 2016 - 01:57 PM

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View PostCptJStank, on 27 February 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:

Combat should look more like this! 

 

http://giant.gfycat.com/ShrillSeveralBlackandtancoonhound.gif

 

Indeed, its so sad that a one-man indie game like Starsector totally blows a AAA game like MOO 4 out of the water with its tactical combat. Shameful.

BionicDance #19 Posted 27 February 2016 - 04:32 PM

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I quite liked the MoO2 combat; at least there was an element of strategy to it.

With this real-time stuff, it seems like I'm not really a participant. there is no reason to send a ship off to the side to flank the enemy, or have them stand off to pelt them from a distance...just point the fleets at each other, sit back, and watch.

 

Now, I agree that it would get to the point in MoO2 where the first shot would win once you got the right tech, and real-time battles eliminate this. But the problem is that all of the strategy has been taken out, the interface has been dumbed down.

I can think of a few fixes, though. For example:

1) Waypoints. Allow each ship--or multiple ships at once--to be issued multiple numbered points in space to which they're directed as a path, allowing the player to attempt flanking the enemy, or to keep their fleets out of range while pelting them from afar.

2) Each waypoint should have a type, like "Move To", "Move To and Shoot", "Resume Auto-AI", etc. Again, this will help with the strategy.

3) Allow these waypoints to be changed at any time as the tactical situation changes, in order to react to the enemy's strategy.

4) Once un-paused, each fleet can still fire simultaneously, eliminating the whoever-shoots-first-wins problem.

 

I think, if anything, these changes would make the real-time combat a lot more interesting and fun. It would make it seems as though I had something to do with the outcome of the fight, which, as is, I don't.



Phaedred #20 Posted 27 February 2016 - 09:45 PM

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View PostHarper73, on 25 February 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

"I can see where the developers get the idea that tactical combat is not that important. MOO1 and MOO2 combat honest is kind of boring.
 
Let me give a few points:
When combat started you are already in range of all heavy weapons and missiles
When you get high enough tech who ever had the first shot normally one because each ship could take out another ship with 1 shot.
SIZE mattered unless you had WAY higher tech.
Once you got plasma cannons it was pretty much over.
One the main map screen you would chase around a fleet or would have the fleet chase around you.
Sometime the battles got so big it would TAKE FOREVER to finish them and again it would still come down to who had the first shot.
 
Where I do think the developers could make this game better is thinking of a way to make tactical combat strategic BUT also at the same time enjoyable."

 
I couldn't disagree more.  MOO2 combat was close to perfect.  It needs to be in this game or I will loose interest way too fast.  Where is the fun in starting a battle where everything happens at the same time and practically runs on auto?
 

 


Edited by Phaedred, 27 February 2016 - 09:46 PM.





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