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Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Tactical combat 4x Strategy poll

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Poll: Tactical or Strategic Part is more important for MOO Universe (69 members have cast votes)

Tactical (Battles) or Strategic (4x) Part is more important in MOO Universe for you (sorry guys, no choice for 4x and Tactical by design)

  1. Strategic 4x part (Diplomacy, Economics, Colony Management and Research, Race traits) (28 votes [40.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.58%

  2. Tactical combat (Battles, Ship Designer, Asymmetric perks) (41 votes [59.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.42%

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JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg #1 Posted 06 March 2016 - 03:20 PM

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What is the main driver (pillar) for the MOO Universe games ?

 

It's clear that too little people will play only the Pure Tactical Combat or Pure 4x Strategy in the MOO Universe. But Imo all the 4x Strategy part is a prelude of a good-big-choke Tactical fight (with friends or against the AI). Atleast MOO1 was, Imo. Perhaps it is the lost spirit and The Curse of The Orion's Master.


Edited by JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, 06 March 2016 - 06:22 PM.

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Poll from Zorg : Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Poll from Zorg : No LOOT in MOO/CtS


Vahouth #2 Posted 06 March 2016 - 03:39 PM

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I see strategy as the main drive for the MoO universe, with a ratio of 70/30.

Stellaris as a grand strategy game is about 90/10.



JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg #3 Posted 06 March 2016 - 04:09 PM

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View PostVahouth, on 06 March 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

I see strategy as the main drive for the MoO universe, with a ratio of 70/30.

Stellaris as a grand strategy game is about 90/10.

 

I mean that in MOO Universe Combat&ShipDesign are the core part and 4x Strategy part is spinning around it. Techs, Colony productions, Diplomacy - all around it. In Civ it's different - far different. Imo Civ teaches you NOT to fight. And if there is no good tactical combat in MOO, then it is probably in one line with CIV, Stellaris and ES2. Not even HMM.

 

MOO is a good balance of Strategy and Tactics. Now it's time to decide which part is closer to the player.


Edited by JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, 06 March 2016 - 06:34 PM.

"Nice pictures, nice UI, balance and a good AI" © "This is no mine, it's a tomb!"

Poll from Zorg : Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Poll from Zorg : No LOOT in MOO/CtS


Possibility454 #4 Posted 06 March 2016 - 06:30 PM

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Like X-COM, the strategic was minor compared to the tactical combat. I would prefer to spend more time in good combat then the strategic layer. Its why I liked MOO1 so much, the strategic was very streamlined but it had glorious tactical. I think MOO4 strategic needs to be simpler and combat greatly expanded. When you have combat, I wish it had the whole solar system, with the sun in the center, all the planets and their moon, starbases, asteroid belts, comets, all laid out in one big tactical combat map. The way this game is being designed, the tactical is nearly pointless and you might as well auto-resolve, or even better go and get Endless Space 2. They aren't making any pretenses about tactical and putting all effort into great strategic gameplay. I wish MOO4 was more like MOO1, good strategic with great and complex tactical.

Michael_Faber #5 Posted 06 March 2016 - 06:58 PM

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For me MOO2 was like HOMM3 the tactical combat made these games great added with a clever strategic layer.

StormhawkAPS #6 Posted 06 March 2016 - 07:00 PM

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View PostPossibility454, on 06 March 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Like X-COM, the strategic was minor compared to the tactical combat. I would prefer to spend more time in good combat then the strategic layer. Its why I liked MOO1 so much, the strategic was very streamlined but it had glorious tactical. I think MOO4 strategic needs to be simpler and combat greatly expanded. When you have combat, I wish it had the whole solar system, with the sun in the center, all the planets and their moon, starbases, asteroid belts, comets, all laid out in one big tactical combat map. The way this game is being designed, the tactical is nearly pointless and you might as well auto-resolve, or even better go and get Endless Space 2. They aren't making any pretenses about tactical and putting all effort into great strategic gameplay. I wish MOO4 was more like MOO1, good strategic with great and complex tactical.

 

Did you even play the same MOO1 as me? tactical was 'streamlined', as well. No facing, crowded arena, stacked units... it was a mockery of tactical combat, especially compared to X-COM and MOO2, where every unit and how they were positioned could count. MOO1 felt like it was more about just getting into range before the enemy could, especially considering the complete lack of ship facing or weapon arcs. Not to mention the cheese that is the Black Hole Generator, according to everyone I've seen talk about MOO1 combat. I used nothing but Heavy Mount and High Energy Focus in MOO1 as, otherwise, I'd be attacking at point-blank only, which is stupid.

 

As an X-COM fan first, I could only really enjoy MOO2's combat. MOO1 combat was brain-dead by comparison and ultimately decided before the battle began, every time, unlike MOO2.


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Xil0 #7 Posted 06 March 2016 - 09:41 PM

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Voted Tactical Combat.. and the fact that this CORE feature of MOO is not available in Multiplayer.. :(

Bastilean #8 Posted 06 March 2016 - 10:27 PM

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The fact that the developers haven't realized this and professed is what makes Master of X games unique and compelling makes me wonder if they were ever part of the original development.

Dave_Astator #9 Posted 06 March 2016 - 10:53 PM

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I would say that strategy actually defines outcome of battles. So it is more important. Having good strategy you will have more capable fleet and more ways to use it properly. So from game perspective it is a strategy.

if tactical battles were more important then they shoul have main focus and players sholdnt have anything but ships.

 

i vote strategy.



Ardrikk #10 Posted 06 March 2016 - 11:20 PM

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There should be an option in the poll to choose 50/50 as I think the tactical combat and the strategic layer are equally important to the MOO experience. 

JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg #11 Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:51 AM

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View PostArdrikk, on 06 March 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

There should be an option in the poll to choose 50/50 as I think the tactical combat and the strategic layer are equally important to the MOO experience. 

View PostVahouth, on 06 March 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

I see strategy as the main drive for the MoO universe, with a ratio of 70/30.

Stellaris as a grand strategy game is about 90/10.

 

Player have to look into the bottom of his heart and answer for himself one simple question at the end of the day : "Is he a warrior or a trader ?"


Edited by JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, 07 March 2016 - 09:04 AM.

"Nice pictures, nice UI, balance and a good AI" © "This is no mine, it's a tomb!"

Poll from Zorg : Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Poll from Zorg : No LOOT in MOO/CtS


BionicDance #12 Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:09 PM

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Block Quote

 

 
I mean that in MOO Universe Combat&ShipDesign are the core part and 4x Strategy part is spinning around it.

 

I disagree. MoO is not, at its heart, a wargame. You're building an empire, not a space navy.

 

Frankly, I wish the other, non-combat parts of the game were far more enhanced, to give each game the feeling of a story, something Babylon 5-esque. Crank the diplomacy up to 11, so your interactions with other races are more interesting. Have the game tell you the motives one race had for attacking another, "They took our colony on Ragesh 3!" or "They cheated us on their trade agreements!" or "Their spies have stolen enough of our technology!" or something. Allow you to explain to them why you went to war, and if their relations with that race are already bad enough, maybe they'll go to war against them too. Or maybe they'll find your reasons petty, and tell you so.

And have the game keep a record of one's history, so the alien races get a comprehensive view of each others' histories. "A hundred turns ago, your people went to war with ours, but since that conflict, you have treated us with respect and honor. We are proud to call you friend!"

Each game should feel like a TV show or movie series.

 

Now THAT is a game I'd want to play. That is what Master of Orion is really about.

The combat is just one aspect of a much, much larger game, and always has been...the computing power just didn't exist for such complicated interactions when the first games were made.



Provinfistoris #13 Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:45 PM

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I voted strategy. The strategy layer surrounds the tactical layer. It's what long before the combat determines your win or loss. However, that is not to say a clever commander can't turn a battle that's stacked against him. Good tactical decisions can compensate for a weaker strategic position. 

 

Both layers are important. 



Ozymandyus #14 Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:53 PM

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I don't agree with it being an either/or, Zorg.  Both flowing together into a harmonic whole is what made MOO2 the pinnacle of 4X games.

Mikko_M #15 Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:48 PM

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Although I think both of those aspects are important in a proper Master Of Orion experience, a great tactical combat and ship designing is what truly separates MOO from games like Galactic Civilizations and many other space 4X games. So mr. Keeling please try to get this to your head already!

Edited by Mikko_M, 07 March 2016 - 06:49 PM.

Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


_Koneko_ #16 Posted 08 March 2016 - 01:15 AM

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View PostJeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, on 06 March 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

What is the main driver (pillar) for the MOO Universe games ?

 

It's clear that too little people will play only the Pure Tactical Combat or Pure 4x Strategy in the MOO Universe. But Imo all the 4x Strategy part is a prelude of a good-big-choke Tactical fight (with friends or against the AI). Atleast MOO1 was, Imo. Perhaps it is the lost spirit and The Curse of The Orion's Master.

 

The main driver of moo2 is the customization of your race.   This allowed you to play a hybrid race that had different positives and negatives than the main races.   In terms of human vs human player games you could limit what race picks no one could play with.   What most (99% of people) did not know is that moo2 was incomplete and because it didn't have expansions lacked a true rounded out game....there were flaws that never got fixed by the company.

 

Quite often, people confuse strategy and tactics and think the two terms are interchangeable, but they’re not.

 

If you think strategy and tactics are the main focus of moo, then the strategies are the ways you can conquer the galaxy.   Tactics are in how you do it.

Example:  Strategy is using battle pods and reinforced hull on a destroyer to make it more powerful.   Tactics is placing all mass drivers on it and getting it into range to take out even a cruiser which doesn't have those techs on it.  In moo phasers are the most cost efficient weapon in the game, but they have damage that is reduced by range.  Disruptors don't, so tactically you could stay at long range and do higher damage.

Now the new game from the time I've played is looking like I don't need to build tons of pollution controls if I plan right.  I can now have guys researching and few lowering pollution, and it saves me money for later/emergency use.  This is a new strategic planet management option that wasn't in the moo games before....and I like the idea of seeing if it can be used.

 

Now the developers have by use of space lanes, and other new techs, opened up new possible strategic options for people.   Now these rabbits, when pulled out of the hat can be nice surprises to spring on another potential human player.  Right now they really trump the computer AI too much.  Moo isn't like chess, as chess is a finite, predictable, zero sum, where luck plays no factor in the game.  Luck in positioning where you start, luck in the state of the galaxy events, luck in tactical combat in attack rolls those are like real life factors that could set back a conquest or plans.   Moo1 and Moo2 had a predictibility to them...if you go this tech then this one, built this first you won.  If the developers can think about that and how to open up new possibilities the game has promise.

 

 



JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg #17 Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:09 PM

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View PostBionicDance, on 07 March 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

 

I disagree. MoO is not, at its heart, a wargame. You're building an empire, not a space navy.

 

Each game should feel like a TV show or movie series.

 

Now, if you are talking about quest elements. One big challenge is to make game playable "again and again" . How to do this ? Procedurally generated quest lines ?

 

Atleast MOO1 was much closer to wargame, aswell as SimTex was closer to combat simulators. Civ/MOM elements for colony management, Heroes and etc. were added later in MOO2 as popular features. Combat was extended and diplomacy was the same.

 

View PostOzymandyus, on 07 March 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

I don't agree with it being an either/or, Zorg.  Both flowing together into a harmonic whole is what made MOO2 the pinnacle of 4X games.

 

The whole crusade of this poll is to find and show what is the true "magic" of MOO12. That's why we have to make autopsy of it and separate Combat from 4x... 

 


Edited by JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, 08 March 2016 - 12:12 PM.

"Nice pictures, nice UI, balance and a good AI" © "This is no mine, it's a tomb!"

Poll from Zorg : Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Poll from Zorg : No LOOT in MOO/CtS


Eji1700 #18 Posted 08 March 2016 - 03:58 PM

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Tactical doesn't work well unless the rest isn't a mess, but the big highlight to me about MOO is that it's the only 4x I can think of that actually had potentially good combat (even if it was sorta shallow at the higher levels).

JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg #19 Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:03 PM

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View PostEji1700, on 08 March 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Tactical doesn't work well unless the rest isn't a mess, but the big highlight to me about MOO is that it's the only 4x I can think of that actually had potentially good combat (even if it was sorta shallow at the higher levels).

 

It's true, but doesn't it mean that Tactical part is The Core of MOO games ?

"Nice pictures, nice UI, balance and a good AI" © "This is no mine, it's a tomb!"

Poll from Zorg : Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Poll from Zorg : No LOOT in MOO/CtS


Vahouth #20 Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:18 PM

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View PostJeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg, on 07 March 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

 

Player have to look into the bottom of his heart and answer for himself one simple question at the end of the day : "Is he a warrior or a trader ?"

 

It depends on the game. ;)

See for example the Battlefleet Gothic preview. It is clearly more combat oriented than MoO.

 







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