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Combat is the Core for MOO Universe 4x Strategy

Tactical combat 4x Strategy poll

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Poll: Tactical or Strategic Part is more important for MOO Universe (69 members have cast votes)

Tactical (Battles) or Strategic (4x) Part is more important in MOO Universe for you (sorry guys, no choice for 4x and Tactical by design)

  1. Strategic 4x part (Diplomacy, Economics, Colony Management and Research, Race traits) (28 votes [40.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.58%

  2. Tactical combat (Battles, Ship Designer, Asymmetric perks) (41 votes [59.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.42%

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Mikko_M #41 Posted 12 May 2016 - 01:42 PM

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View PostCeadeed, on 12 May 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

 

Emotional pandering.  MoO is not defined by turn based combat.  MoO4 is not even the first MoO to not use turn based combat, it's current model is tactical combat, but real time tactical combat rather than turn based.

 

​According to most players this game`s current mode of combat is cinematic combat (just watch the AI do something, since you cannot really affect anything much anyway) rather than tactical combat. ;) I personally could live with a real-time tactical combat system (with a pause option), if it only offered the player some real tactical options.


Edited by Mikko_M, 12 May 2016 - 01:43 PM.

Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


Ceadeed #42 Posted 12 May 2016 - 04:48 PM

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View PostMikko_M, on 12 May 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

​According to most players this game`s current mode of combat is cinematic combat (just watch the AI do something, since you cannot really affect anything much anyway) rather than tactical combat. ;) I personally could live with a real-time tactical combat system (with a pause option), if it only offered the player some real tactical options.

 

Sure, but the important distinction is that the choice of the current system isn't the problem, but inadequacies with the execution are the problem.

Prrsha #43 Posted 12 May 2016 - 05:02 PM

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View PostCeadeed, on 12 May 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

 

Sure, but the important distinction is that the choice of the current system isn't the problem, but inadequacies with the execution are the problem.

 

It's a work in progress as this is still alpha but there is a lot of potential to it (and I am a hardcore turn based combat fan).  The combat reminds me (in concept at least) to Homeworld, which I can live with.  They just need to add planet bombardment in tactical combat.  :3

Provinfistoris #44 Posted 12 May 2016 - 07:14 PM

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View PostPrrsha, on 12 May 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

 

It's a work in progress as this is still alpha but there is a lot of potential to it (and I am a hardcore turn based combat fan).  The combat reminds me (in concept at least) to Homeworld, which I can live with.  They just need to add planet bombardment in tactical combat.  :3

 

Not to nitpick, but this is Beta, not alpha. Also EA4 which is coming soon, is the final phase of Beta.

Stelar_7 #45 Posted 12 May 2016 - 07:59 PM

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View PostProvinfistoris, on 12 May 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

 

Not to nitpick, but this is Beta, not alpha. Also EA4 which is coming soon, is the final phase of Beta.

 

They have said they will go longer in EA if they need to. From other things they have said I would expect at least two more major updates, possibly even more than that. (At least one to take out the minor civs and one to add them back) Given the improvements already implemented I'm confident that combat will continue to get better.

LeadfootSlim #46 Posted 13 May 2016 - 05:10 AM

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View PostStelar_7, on 12 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

 

They have said they will go longer in EA if they need to. From other things they have said I would expect at least two more major updates, possibly even more than that. (At least one to take out the minor civs and one to add them back) Given the improvements already implemented I'm confident that combat will continue to get better.

 

Oh, lordy. That really puts a crunch on changes to any core mechanics... I really, REALLY don't want them to go the Civ V route and have DLC for integral subsystems that finally make everything "click".

Stelar_7 #47 Posted 13 May 2016 - 06:10 AM

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View PostMikko_M, on 12 May 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

 

​According to most players this game`s current mode of combat is cinematic combat (just watch the AI do something, since you cannot really affect anything much anyway) rather than tactical combat. ;) I personally could live with a real-time tactical combat system (with a pause option), if it only offered the player some real tactical options.

 

I missed this earlier, please look up my guide to tactical combat. It is far more than a cinematic and if you let it play as one your ships will under perform. There could be more added to the current tactical combat, but player decisions are very, very relevant to the outcome of the battle.

 

 

View PostLeadfootSlim, on 13 May 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

 

Oh, lordy. That really puts a crunch on changes to any core mechanics... I really, REALLY don't want them to go the Civ V route and have DLC for integral subsystems that finally make everything "click".

 

I don't follow you. They will keep working until they are done, there is no set in stone release date. This is a good thing. The game will keep improving.



Provinfistoris #48 Posted 13 May 2016 - 06:14 PM

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View PostStelar_7, on 12 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

 

They have said they will go longer in EA if they need to. From other things they have said I would expect at least two more major updates, possibly even more than that. (At least one to take out the minor civs and one to add them back) Given the improvements already implemented I'm confident that combat will continue to get better.

 

They did say that. However the last time the devs spoke about EA phases they said there would be 4. They haven't amended that yet, so until then, I'm going under what I know concretely. 

Stelar_7 #49 Posted 13 May 2016 - 06:56 PM

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View PostProvinfistoris, on 13 May 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

 

They did say that. However the last time the devs spoke about EA phases they said there would be 4. They haven't amended that yet, so until then, I'm going under what I know concretely. 

 

Since they have said that the next patch will remove minor civilizations, and that they will be added back, I think you can be assured of at least two more major patches. 



Mikko_M #50 Posted 15 May 2016 - 02:20 AM

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View PostStelar_7, on 13 May 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

 

I missed this earlier, please look up my guide to tactical combat. It is far more than a cinematic and if you let it play as one your ships will under perform. There could be more added to the current tactical combat, but player decisions are very, very relevant to the outcome of the battle.

 

 

Most players don`t seem to share your optimism about the amount of player options in tactical combat, and that includes me as well even after reading your guide. I personally want at least better control of different weapon systems and the ability to board enemy ships still added/improved. I have also heard complaints about there not being enough space available in tactical combat to actually carry out any maneuvers and that weapon firing arcs hardly matter currently.


Edited by Mikko_M, 15 May 2016 - 02:21 AM.

Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


Stelar_7 #51 Posted 15 May 2016 - 07:59 AM

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View PostMikko_M, on 15 May 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

 

Most players don`t seem to share your optimism about the amount of player options in tactical combat, and that includes me as well even after reading your guide. I personally want at least better control of different weapon systems and the ability to board enemy ships still added/improved. I have also heard complaints about there not being enough space available in tactical combat to actually carry out any maneuvers and that weapon firing arcs hardly matter currently.

 

​That's fine, they are free to be pessimistic, I'll be having fun.

 

I would like to be able to define movement and fire commands with greater depth than we currently can. I need to update my guide because I've finally had a chance to play a lot of tactical in EA3 and some things are missing, namely the ability to control individual ships.

 

I would like the spacing between ships to be lessened, or the point defense range increased when using box formation.

 

Firing arcs are a big deal if you are moving around. Right now the Armor repairer is very powerful. Shield boosters too. If a missile fleet runs away from a gun fleet they can do a lot of damage while the gun using ships are stuck chasing. If you want to be able to control the range of a fight though, you have got to have Omni directional fire capability.

 

The maps are currently too small. I would like to see them get larger, they do enlarge when there are a lot of ships on the table. That seems to cause a lot of system strain.

 

However at the core, there is a tactical system available, and using it well creates a massive advantage over the AI controlled ships. They have some very exploitable behavior, and their ship designs are not as focused as they could be.

 

Having said that, the AI is getting better, it previously attacked non combat ships, if it was losing, to get a few hits in. Now  it also uses the cover. I've seen it duck behind asteroids, and also hide in nebulae and stop when under fire from missiles.


Edited by Stelar_7, 15 May 2016 - 08:00 AM.


Mikko_M #52 Posted 15 May 2016 - 03:32 PM

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View PostStelar_7, on 15 May 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

 

​That's fine, they are free to be pessimistic, I'll be having fun.

 

I would like to be able to define movement and fire commands with greater depth than we currently can. I need to update my guide because I've finally had a chance to play a lot of tactical in EA3 and some things are missing, namely the ability to control individual ships.

 

I would like the spacing between ships to be lessened, or the point defense range increased when using box formation.

 

Firing arcs are a big deal if you are moving around. Right now the Armor repairer is very powerful. Shield boosters too. If a missile fleet runs away from a gun fleet they can do a lot of damage while the gun using ships are stuck chasing. If you want to be able to control the range of a fight though, you have got to have Omni directional fire capability.

 

The maps are currently too small. I would like to see them get larger, they do enlarge when there are a lot of ships on the table. That seems to cause a lot of system strain.

 

However at the core, there is a tactical system available, and using it well creates a massive advantage over the AI controlled ships. They have some very exploitable behavior, and their ship designs are not as focused as they could be.

 

Having said that, the AI is getting better, it previously attacked non combat ships, if it was losing, to get a few hits in. Now  it also uses the cover. I've seen it duck behind asteroids, and also hide in nebulae and stop when under fire from missiles.

 

So it seems that we (and a lot of other players) agree that there is still work to be done on the tactical combat side of things to make it feel truly tactical like it should be in a MOO game. :)

 

View PostEmP64213, on 15 May 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

 

Thing is MoO is not just any kind of 4X game. There are enough other grand strategy games without tactical combat to scratch space empire build itch. MoO I & II were prime example of marriage between empire building and tactical battles. Developers waiving with MoO IP inevitably rise the expectation in consumers' eyes that their game will have both things too.

 

Agreed. Good tactical combat + good empire management is what I expect to get from a MOO game, and without these two all you have left is just another space 4X game.


Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


Anguille_1 #53 Posted 15 May 2016 - 08:17 PM

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View PostEmP64213, on 15 May 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

 

Thing is MoO is not just any kind of 4X game. There are enough other grand strategy games without tactical combat to scratch space empire build itch. MoO I & II were prime example of marriage between empire building and tactical battles. Developers waiving with MoO IP inevitably rise the expectation in consumers' eyes that their game will have both things too.

 

Combat is one of the main reasons why i still play MOO2.

Playing MOO since 1993

 

Playing MOO Conquer the Stars on GOG Galaxy

 

4x space game CV: Master of Orion, Master of Orion II, Master of Orion III, Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain, Reach for the Stars, Imperium Galactica, Imperium Galactica II, Armada 2526, Distant Worlds, Star Ruler I and II, Endless Space, Horizon, Stardrive, Stradrive II, Sword of the Stars, Sword of the Stars II, Galactic Civilization I - III, LotBS, Lost Empires: Immortals, Space Empires IV and V, Starships Unlimited, Star Wars: Empire at War, Star Wars: Rebellio, Birth of the Federation and Stellaris.






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