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Races just don't matter much anymore.


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Fader48080 #1 Posted 10 March 2016 - 03:02 AM

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Psilons used to be awesome because they could research everything in a given subject, now not only can everyone research everything in most subject the Psilons can't do it for the handful of tech that still require a choice. 

 

Humans used to be able to keep most people happy even on the hardest difficultly really getting to pick the moment to strike out AND reap huge benefits from trading and research treaties and getting tech out of allies, Now maintaining a friendship with even one race is nearly impossible and requires investing so much in trade and research negotiations while bowing and scraping to their every demand and making enemies of their enemies ignoring their every slight and incursion in your territory as you go just to stay more or less neutral especially considering that the cost of the trade and research agreements after a very short time don't produce nearly as much as you spend to set them up. so yeah humans are worthless now too.

 

So far the only races that seam to matter at all is Mrrshan because you can chug out a destroyer right away giving you a minor edge over nosey neighbors/pirates and the Sakkra because they can populate faster than you can make colony ships early on which makes for nice expansion.

 

 



Francois424 #2 Posted 16 March 2016 - 02:55 AM

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Devs have acknowledged the fact and said they are working on that for future updates.

That is both for the Diplomacy shortcomings and the Racial diversity itself.

Also keep in mind race customization is coming as well so we'll be able to mess it up real good like MoO2 with any chance.



Shade_Meadows #3 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:22 AM

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Relax! its just Early Access, i'm sure they will fix it

Fader48080 #4 Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:34 AM

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View PostShade_Meadows, on 17 March 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Relax! its just Early Access, i'm sure they will fix it

 

I am not raving mad here. see you may not know this but this is how Early Access works. if I don't list my issues now exactly when am I supposed to list them?

Francois424 #5 Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:07 AM

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It's good that you list them, I was just saying they acknowledged it already.

But listing them is what they are asking for indeed.



SmilingDeath #6 Posted 22 March 2016 - 06:25 AM

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I certainly hope the Dev tweak the base stats as you suggest and hopefully the AI strategies.  There is some ambiguity in that they said they would adjust are the racial perks/traits, which could apply to the starting techs, racial traits (+2 beam defense), base stats or AI strategy.  

 

I'm waiting to see how they scale up the AI difficulty.  Right now I would say the game "has potential".  :-)



Francois424 #7 Posted 22 March 2016 - 04:22 PM

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Personally, what I'd like to see is that all races have their own biomes, and if applicable (it's considered a +2pts advantage in Moo2's points) their own Über.

I also would like Terraforming to "Move the Slider" in any direction depending on said race's ideal.

So Human moves it toward Terran, Sakkra towards Swamp, Trilarians towards Ocean, Silicoids towards Volcano (and so on).

Gaia would simply become either a less powerful Über planet, or specifically the human Über (The Über for any race that did not pay to have the advantage of a Über world)

Might not sound like much but would diversify the galaxy tremendously late game and maybe influence wars.


 

Racial Picks (Bonus), needs to be strong enough that it matters for all races as well.  I mean Sakkras having currently a +75% reproduction advantage would be okay I other races bonus would compensate.

The problem I've always had with some picks in Master of Orion II was that nobody cared about them and the bonus was too easily countered.

+ship defense or +ship offence... My early races experimented with these and the gains simply didn't matter at all... The best defense was was 7 points as well.  Only worked for beams and too weak bonus.

Omniscient seems a good bonus, but it's only good early game when you lack speed and every turn counts to colonize good systems asap.

-food picks and -science picks where so crippling that their value in point was not priced correctly...


 

All of this meant that of the basic 13 races, some remained super weak especially with AI players (Mrrshans, Elerians, Bulrathi, Trilarans) and others having same points ruled the universe (Klackons,  Sakkras, Silicoids, Mecklars).

Ironically, raced mattered a whole lot more, especially in the hands of an expert player.  But balancing it if Moo2 would have had multiple more patches (say monthly patches like current games) if made in current internet age.


 

IMHO the key is balancing the race picks and the rest will fall into place naturally or require minor tweaking.
 

I can't wait to see what WG will cook for us in this iteration.



Fader48080 #8 Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:06 PM

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View PostFrancois424, on 22 March 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Personally, what I'd like to see is that all races have their own biomes, and if applicable (it's considered a +2pts advantage in Moo2's points) their own Über.

I also would like Terraforming to "Move the Slider" in any direction depending on said race's ideal.

So Human moves it toward Terran, Sakkra towards Swamp, Trilarians towards Ocean, Silicoids towards Volcano (and so on).

Gaia would simply become either a less powerful Über planet, or specifically the human Über (The Über for any race that did not pay to have the advantage of a Über world)

Might not sound like much but would diversify the galaxy tremendously late game and maybe influence wars.


 

Racial Picks (Bonus), needs to be strong enough that it matters for all races as well.  I mean Sakkras having currently a +75% reproduction advantage would be okay I other races bonus would compensate.

The problem I've always had with some picks in Master of Orion II was that nobody cared about them and the bonus was too easily countered.

+ship defense or +ship offence... My early races experimented with these and the gains simply didn't matter at all... The best defense was was 7 points as well.  Only worked for beams and too weak bonus.

Omniscient seems a good bonus, but it's only good early game when you lack speed and every turn counts to colonize good systems asap.

-food picks and -science picks where so crippling that their value in point was not priced correctly...


 

All of this meant that of the basic 13 races, some remained super weak especially with AI players (Mrrshans, Elerians, Bulrathi, Trilarans) and others having same points ruled the universe (Klackons,  Sakkras, Silicoids, Mecklars).

Ironically, raced mattered a whole lot more, especially in the hands of an expert player.  But balancing it if Moo2 would have had multiple more patches (say monthly patches like current games) if made in current internet age.


 

IMHO the key is balancing the race picks and the rest will fall into place naturally or require minor tweaking.
 

I can't wait to see what WG will cook for us in this iteration.

 

I always liked creative, telepathic, and omniscient then i would take lucky or cybernrtic. creative for the tech edge, omniscient for the early warning early on and also the ability to counter cloaking. And telepathic more for theme but also I didn't have to worry about logistics so much.



Francois424 #9 Posted 23 March 2016 - 04:55 AM

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View PostFader48080, on 22 March 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

 

I always liked creative, telepathic, and omniscient then i would take lucky or cybernrtic. creative for the tech edge, omniscient for the early warning early on and also the ability to counter cloaking. And telepathic more for theme but also I didn't have to worry about logistics so much.

 

Nice mix.

Mine was Aquatic, Subterranean, Creative, Large HW.   Creative=same as you, Subterranean + Aquatic for population edge, and large HW because 1pt remaining.

But never managed to have a race with High-G, Ship offense/defense bonuses to work.  I did manage quite a few with Feudalism (upgrades into confederation with is super awesome), but the half science really hurts.



The_StormWraith #10 Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:45 PM

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Nice choices. Where possible in games I like to take an obvious negative and, if possible, try and make it work for you. So Feudalism, with it's grotesque science rate, I would try to make irrelevant with spying and capturing of technology. If I am honest... this rarely worked. But it was awfully fun to play.  My own favorite combinations were often based on Feudal and Aquatic, and if I could manage it, telepathic and cybernetic. This meant I could capture ships in battle, use them immediately in combat, and be repairing them at the same time so they would survive long enough to  be reverse engineered. (Not all these traits were necessarily possible at the same time - I don't have the time right now to work it out). One fun thing to do was to leave 1 or 2 points unassigned, so that when you got to 'Evolutionary Mutation' you could by either Aquatic or Subterranean. That would give your planets a sudden, massive boost at a time when dramatic changes were generally much slower. Of course... you had to actually GET that far, but still...

 

Sometimes, when I *really* wanted to roll the dice, I would take Feudal, minus science, and Uncreative. Then it was all about whether the dice loved you or not. If you didn't randomly get Research Labs either by die roll or trading, you were utterly, utterly hooped. If you did, though... Unleash the Sakkran Privateer Fleets!

 

StormWraith, Feudal Sakkran Researcher

and Pirate on the Seas of Fate


Edited by The_StormWraith, 23 March 2016 - 03:46 PM.


Fader48080 #11 Posted 24 March 2016 - 12:06 AM

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View PostFrancois424, on 23 March 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

 

Nice mix.

Mine was Aquatic, Subterranean, Creative, Large HW.   Creative=same as you, Subterranean + Aquatic for population edge, and large HW because 1pt remaining.

But never managed to have a race with High-G, Ship offense/defense bonuses to work.  I did manage quite a few with Feudalism (upgrades into confederation with is super awesome), but the half science really hurts.

 

View PostThe_StormWraith, on 23 March 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Nice choices. Where possible in games I like to take an obvious negative and, if possible, try and make it work for you. So Feudalism, with it's grotesque science rate, I would try to make irrelevant with spying and capturing of technology. If I am honest... this rarely worked. But it was awfully fun to play.  My own favorite combinations were often based on Feudal and Aquatic, and if I could manage it, telepathic and cybernetic. This meant I could capture ships in battle, use them immediately in combat, and be repairing them at the same time so they would survive long enough to  be reverse engineered. (Not all these traits were necessarily possible at the same time - I don't have the time right now to work it out). One fun thing to do was to leave 1 or 2 points unassigned, so that when you got to 'Evolutionary Mutation' you could by either Aquatic or Subterranean. That would give your planets a sudden, massive boost at a time when dramatic changes were generally much slower. Of course... you had to actually GET that far, but still...

 

Sometimes, when I *really* wanted to roll the dice, I would take Feudal, minus science, and Uncreative. Then it was all about whether the dice loved you or not. If you didn't randomly get Research Labs either by die roll or trading, you were utterly, utterly hooped. If you did, though... Unleash the Sakkran Privateer Fleets!

 

StormWraith, Feudal Sakkran Researcher

and Pirate on the Seas of Fate

 

I never had a problem with Feudal. I wont pretend that research hit didn't suck however I felt especially late game it was more than balanced out by your ability to chug out ships faster than just about anyone. if you play with telepathic you basically negate the assimilation penalty and by mid game their are enough passive moral bonuses that a marines are no longer a MUST HAVE at any new planet. my disadvantages were normally -10 offence, defense, and ground fighting, and feudal that being said I should point out that I spend the first half of most games really licking boot everywhere I go. normally around mid game I can gobble up 1 or 2 weak neighbors and by end game it is about using Phasing cloak and basically guerrilla tactics to hit  the enemy where they are weakest. sometimes even having to sacrifice a system or 2 to take over sometimes as many as 2 dozen of theirs.

LeadfootSlim #12 Posted 27 March 2016 - 04:28 PM

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I think that there needs to be more hard, distinct playstyle changes for each race. For example, I've seen a few suggestions for giving Klackons an unbreakable morale.

 

When Silicoids get added, I think that'll be the tipping point for unique races; if they're 100% Lithovores that don't use food at all, ever, then other races are going to need their own unique traits to balance things out - and there'll need to be a way to deal with "redundant" techs. MOO2's choice system meant that Silicoids could cherrypick things in the biology tree that they'd actually use, like Cloning Centers or Death Spores, and ignore the frilly farm-related stuff... if Silicoids could turn food into money for trade deals, that'd certainly be interesting.



Redshirt4Life #13 Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:46 PM

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Moo1 had the best racial diversity because it was reinforced by research specialties. Each race played entirely different without worry about all these crazy racial bonuses. 

brobb129 #14 Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:17 AM

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In all fairness the Psilons with their Creative trait were way too powerful in MOO2.  When you researched a node you gained all the techs instead of 1 choosen (or 1 random if you were silly enough to pick Uncreative).  I think this game needs a lot more decision techs to keep things interesting and keep tech trading alive in the late game.

 

Saying races don't mean anything anymore is nonsense though.  Their traits and bonuses obviously help you in the game. 25% research or production bonuses aren't helping you out?  The Large, Rich, Artifact bonuses are obviously great early game bonuses.  I guess you are upset that the more powerful traits aren't as powerful as MOO2, but their needs to be balance and the devs are still working on that too.

 

My favorite traits at the moment are +10%,+20% happiness.  They are cheap and allow you to crank up your taxes right away so you can speed up production with purchases.  Towards the end of the game the BCs per turn is insane with 5k-6k or more.



Fader48080 #15 Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:40 AM

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View Postbrobb129, on 09 June 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

In all fairness the Psilons with their Creative trait were way too powerful in MOO2.  When you researched a node you gained all the techs instead of 1 choosen (or 1 random if you were silly enough to pick Uncreative).  I think this game needs a lot more decision techs to keep things interesting and keep tech trading alive in the late game.

 

Saying races don't mean anything anymore is nonsense though.  Their traits and bonuses obviously help you in the game. 25% research or production bonuses aren't helping you out?  The Large, Rich, Artifact bonuses are obviously great early game bonuses.  I guess you are upset that the more powerful traits aren't as powerful as MOO2, but their needs to be balance and the devs are still working on that too.

 

My favorite traits at the moment are +10%,+20% happiness.  They are cheap and allow you to crank up your taxes right away so you can speed up production with purchases.  Towards the end of the game the BCs per turn is insane with 5k-6k or more.

I see you just joined the forum welcome it is nice to have new blood. I posted this message 3 months and a lot of updates ago. When I posted this message their were 5 raves you could play. And yeah for the most part they were really quite interchangeable. Deplomacy was broken beyond anything resembling useful. The psion had a minor research edge but had huge Handycap in fighting effect and production. Basically the only tactical reason to chose a race was did you want bisopheres, destroyers, or the ability to trade insults with your enemies faster.



Mithlas #16 Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:53 AM

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View PostFrancois424, on 22 March 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Racial Picks (Bonus), needs to be strong enough that it matters for all races as well.  I mean Sakkras having currently a +75% reproduction advantage would be okay I other races bonus would compensate.

The problem I've always had with some picks in Master of Orion II was that nobody cared about them and the bonus was too easily countered.

+ship defense or +ship offence... My early races experimented with these and the gains simply didn't matter at all... The best defense was was 7 points as well.  Only worked for beams and too weak bonus.

Omniscient seems a good bonus, but it's only good early game when you lack speed and every turn counts to colonize good systems asap.

-food picks and -science picks where so crippling that their value in point was not priced correctly.

Having valid pricing will help not only custom races (which will increase game longevity) but also even the vanilla races so there is no "master race" and instead any of them are a good choice, even if you take a variety of strategies.

 

View PostLeadfootSlim, on 27 March 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

I've seen a few suggestions for giving Klackons an unbreakable morale.

That would make them act different from the other races, and there's lore background. It also wouldn't negate balance, as AI morale seems irrelevant (though maybe espionage should be able to change that), and on the player's side bad morale tends to be a sign of a play in a descending spiral.



WildPotatoMage #17 Posted 08 September 2016 - 03:14 AM

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View PostFader48080, on 10 March 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

 

 

Humans used to be able to keep most people happy even on the hardest difficultly really getting to pick the moment to strike out AND reap huge benefits from trading and research treaties and getting tech out of allies, Now maintaining a friendship with even one race is nearly impossible and requires investing so much in trade and research negotiations while bowing and scraping to their every demand 

 

I find that the only way to keep civil discourse with the AI on Extreme is to always have an utterly massive fleet and cover all starlanes effectively.

 

If they don't fear you they will attack you.  Period.  You can't ever let them think that they have a chance of winning.  Do that and they will usually go for Non-Aggression Pacts, Trade Agreements, and even Alliances of convenience rather than risk ticking you off.  

 

Usually everyone in my game is too busy exterminating Silicoids to want to fight me.


Edited by WildPotatoMage, 08 September 2016 - 03:16 AM.


Drachasor #18 Posted 15 September 2016 - 10:19 PM

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In MOO2 I enjoyed playing the Borg.  Unification, Telepathic, Cybernetic.  Worked ok, but cost a lot (naturally they were repulsive).  Not the most powerful race, but that was part of the challenge.




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