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Response to Feedback: Upcoming Changes to Master of Orion


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Traceroute #41 Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:42 PM

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This is a great list of improvements. As someone that likes to stretch things into the 400 turn range, the templates sound particularly great. Thanks for the update!

BionicDance #42 Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:49 PM

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Oh, and cup holders.

The game desperately needs cup holders.



Pacioli #43 Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:41 AM

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The list of things here really answer a lot of the things I see in the game that could be improved.  With these changes I would think you would see a really strong start -- mid -- and late game feel to the game instead of the steady mush together it is now.

 

Thanks a lot for this update to the devs.  This alpha/early access seems to be really productive so far unlike so many I have been apart of.



Omega_Weapon #44 Posted 13 March 2016 - 01:02 AM

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View PostJosEPh_II, on 12 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Off road actually should be the 1st method available at game start and just a few Techs into the Tech Tree. SL Tech would open up SL travel and reveal the warp points for a star.  So if you had selected 40% OR at game setup when you Unlock SL travel you have a faster means of travel that may or may not  be a more direct line than OR. And of course if you selected 60% or the 85-90% these all give Options and strategic value. Hope I'm making myself clear. Choice is Always Good.

 

 

I agree that slow medium speed free travel would be nice right from the start. The Warp Points should just show up as annomalies in the beginning. They need to be studied and some new tech needs to be developed before we figure out how to access them for faster movement. Not mid or late game, just not too early on. Kind of weird now that on turn 1 we can already see and understand where the first starlane goes as well as how to use it.

Edited by Omega_Weapon, 13 March 2016 - 01:05 AM.


JonoLith #45 Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:26 AM

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Oh wow! Thank you guys so much for taking the time to write this up! There's so much great stuff in here and I'm really looking forward to the next patch so I can play around with this sweet game! Keep this up for sure! 

 

Love, 

A friendly Canadian



Dave_Astator #46 Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:49 AM

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Wow, that are some great plans, but will we be able to see results of starlane experiments in EA?
Will you also add other stellar objects like nebulae, true black holes(ones that block movement), etc?
I really think that more options for starmap generation should be included, i would like to adjust number of wormholes myself when playing the game as well as galaxy age, stars separation etc.  Map generation options was something to be desired in every previous part of moo, and it should be easy to just open these options for experienced players.
 

Eji1700 #47 Posted 13 March 2016 - 08:38 AM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 12 March 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

 

 

 

Space Factories - I don't really have a lot of info on this yet, but I'm sure the team could come up with some cool ways to make them more valuable late-game.

 

 

Thanks for the detailed responses.

 

Factories: It's not just making them better late game so much as just giving them more depth/decisions.  The rule is pretty much just auto build on all giants/belts you can in the early game (usually 1-3ish if you get into a quick war rather than expand).  Then maybe build defensive structures to stop scouting or pirates for a bit.  To break it down:

 

Starting:

 

Gas giant upgrade- good, but no choices.  It's all you can build on them.

 

Asteroid belt- Single choice, science seems straight better most of the time, but maybe it's worth switching over later...dunno.  Still not much of a choice.

 

Defensive base- lets you repair/upgrades fleets without needing a starbase, but they're tragically weak.  Even if they scaled well (they should) they'd have limited use mostly to reinforce choke points because they take fleet cap which is generally going to be better spent on ships (as is an issue all these games face with defensive structures).

 

Listening posts- i've messed with them but they seem extremely minimal in use and practically pointless right now?  It's a shame because they're the only thing you can build in a system you don't already own.

 

Needs tech:

Advance base- takes 3 fleet cap, basically builds you a battlestation, also doesn't scale at all with tech.  Now I assume that's a feature that's yet to be added (please don't make stations use nukes in late game), but even if this did scale i'm not sure it's worth 3 fleet cap.  It really should do more (or it's going to have to be a nightmare in battle given that it doesn't move making it very susceptible to all sorts of strategies and useless offensively).

 

Asteroird/Giant compression- well there go all your niffty upgrades into full blown planets.  Obviously very good as you can easily spike the output of systems and probably the only reason i rebuild constructors.

 

With this in mind it doesn't take that long to quickly build everything you want by turn 100 tops (or even 50 most games) and then scrap the constructors (and the bases the moment you've got a real fleet).  You rebuild a few because they're dirt cheap later and start mass producing more planets because that's really good, but other than that they do very little.

 

Other issue:

Tall vs wide-  This relates to basic strategy for games like moo, and boils down to expansion.  As it stands right now I see 0 reason to ever stop mass producing colony ships and taking every planet in sight.  Even weak planets are more pop, and pop is god.  There's no anti expansion mechanic (very mildly BC, but it takes very little to offset that, especially if you're going for mass money) so there's no reason to not just land on everything in sight because it'll vastly increase your output.

 

Conversely taking just a few good planets and sitting on them works (although  i doubt it would in pvp vs someone going wide), but it really doesn't net you much.  Theoretically it's easier to defend, but that's really it (and the extra value from having more planets if you go wide means you also lose less if you happen to lose a planet).  MOOII was the same way, although it was a little harder to get food technology to make hostile planets profitable, but by the end of the early game you were basically either conquering or colonizing everything.

 

I get that games like this are about expansion, but at the same time it's sorta shallow if only one strategy works.  I'm hoping there's some additions to make the expansion choice deeper (system wide buildings that only work for the system, but are very expensive for example).



Mikko_M #48 Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:37 PM

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View PostGeneralDirection, on 11 March 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Tactical Battles
At the moment tactical battles have a strong core implementation, but usability is a big issue. A major focus for this feature is improving the control the player has over the action in the battle, as well as more information on what’s happening.

[*]We are evaluating options for more control over specials and weapon systems, as well as weapon overlays to give more clarity on what’s going on


Empire Screen
While it’s primarily intended to be a macro-level management screen, we have seen feedback that certain micro-level options would be nice to have here. We’re also planning to add more clarity and sortable columns for Morale and Pollution.

[*]It will be possible to redistribute population within a colony from this screen
 

 

 

 

Don`t just evaluate, but implement also. ;)Commands like ordering ships with long range weapons to keep their distance from the enemy or ship group X to stand their ground are a must.  ​And also for the players to be able to enjoy their ships and the new technologies in them the battles have to both last long enough by default and also show the clear advances in technology during the game.

 

And regarding the Empire management screen, I distinctly remember at least me and a few others mentioning the problem with the lack of population redistribution function already a couple of months ago. :rolleyes:


Moreover, I advise that the tactical combat must be made more player controllable and informative for this to become a proper MOO game.

 

​The long lost formula for space 4X game success = Good tactical combat + good empire management > than just good tactical combat or good empire management alone.


Moo4 #49 Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:37 PM

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For the bit about making buildings scale better late game.  Here's an opinion:

 

Take your current building list and remove half of them that basically just clog up queues as a measure of progression. Some really uninspired buildings copied over from MoO2.  MoO1 is the pinnacle of this feature and it hasn't been recreated in 20 years.  

 

Take 2/3 of the remaining half and condense them down to improvements attached to the remaining 1/3 of the 1/2 that will be left to actually build in a queue.  (auto -> robo -> deep core for example)

 

Now that you have 1/6 of the buildings, start limiting the number of buildings per planet (or drastically increase maintenance costs for lots of buildings on a single planet).

 

Make players actually decide which of the buildings they will build where.  It is perfectly fine for planets to only have 2-3 buildings in the 'late game' as long as though buildings can be further customized through tech advances and difficult choices. 


I want a moddable Master of Orion 1.5 with focus on interface and pacing.  Come discuss MoO 1.5 ideas HERE!


BionicDance #50 Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:49 PM

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Block Quote

 For the bit about making buildings scale better late game.  Here's an opinion:

 

I like...some of this plan.

 

Block Quote

 Take your current building list and remove half of them that basically just clog up queues as a measure of progression

...

Take 2/3 of the remaining half and condense them down to improvements attached to the remaining 1/3 of the 1/2 that will be left to actually build in a queue.  (auto -> robo -> deep core for example)

 

On the one hand, I totally agree; a lot of the buildings are basically more powerful versions of what you've already got; I've never even been 100% certain in MoO2 whether the original got replaced or just added its power to the current level of whatever it was doing. Or if it became redundant, not adding its help because something more powerful superseded it. I suppose it must have added, since being a race with the Creative trait would be mildly less useful if you didn't get all the benefits.

I suppose I could have checked, but meh...I was busy playing the game. Which is where we come to the bits I'm not so keen on:

 

Block Quote

 Now that you have 1/6 of the buildings, start limiting the number of buildings per planet (or drastically increase maintenance costs for lots of buildings on a single planet).

 

Why? This doesn't sound like any fun. There are already struggles enough just keeping up morale--and thus, keeping all of your colonists doing their jobs--and if suddenly buildings are limited, that means entertainment centers may end up being low-priorities, because otherwise you can't have your planets get built, never mind the ships you'll need. But if you don't have morale, still nothing gets built at all quickly.

It'll become such a juggling act that it'll stop being a game and start being work. I can understand wanting the combat more complicated because we want more options, but making planet-management more complicated seems like doing so just for the sake of it.

 

And from a purely story-based reason... it's a freaking planet. If, all of a sudden, you don't have enough room for, what, ten-to-twenty buildings, just how tiny are these worlds???

 

Block Quote

 It is perfectly fine for planets to only have 2-3 buildings in the 'late game' as long as though buildings can be further customized through tech advances and difficult choices. 

 

We're already faced with difficult choices if they modify the tech tree and don't give us the Creative trait to play with. I honestly think this is a step too far.

 



Francois424 #51 Posted 13 March 2016 - 08:11 PM

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Disagree about building space being limited.

This game borrows the style of colony management from MoO2, that for me is insanely more engaging than what MoO1 ever was.

I already miss the MoO2 races (Trilarans, Elerians, Gnolams) + that race that ate colonist from MoO3, loved that evil race,  and the MoO2 technology tree, I would not like to miss MoO2 colony management too.


 

Part of the charm of MoO2 was to take decisions... Do I spend 20 turns terraforming or do I spend those turns building another Titan ?  Do I keep my planet barren but turn her into a 100% production hub ASAP or do other buildings ?

You don't *have" to manage on the micro level.  Personally I am just waiting to be given a way to write list of building in a notepad that the AI builds in that order, skipping what I do not have.

Being able to save/import multiple lists would be great too.  Colony A?  Prodlist.txt, Colony B? Sciencehub.txt and so on.

That way the micro-manage goes away real fast unless I get attacked or need to change something asap.


 

MoO1 was superb for it's time, but was pretty limited.  Piles of ships(god if black-hole generator was ever OP), only 3 sliders? (Civilization-1 was better), and I never understood the tech tree which felt very bland to begin with.

Racial unique tech was pretty good and should be back tho.  We got Volcano planets from MoO1 which is more than I expected, and it's really nice touch.


 

I do not think that limiting the game by default would be a good move.  BUT if you can have your way thru an option that one can click on/off then why not ?  Maybe call it "Colony management" and "Limited buildings" ?

There are other priorities right now tho IMHO.  This game is PACKED with potential and is already pretty enjoyable.  I just need those buildlist text files so I can churn turns faster in mid-late game.



Alondo1 #52 Posted 13 March 2016 - 09:29 PM

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I might be the lone voice in the wilderness here, but here goes. . .

 

I would really, REALLY like my sliders back for star system management. I hate buildings. I thought that MoO II was a large step backwards. If I wanted to play Civilization, well then I'd go play Civilization. There's a reason that I still have MoO1 on my Hard-Drive and not MoO II or III.

Buildings are just make-work. 

I hate the tedium of 10  minute turns because I have to decide which stupid building to construct for 100 different planets. I'm going to build and upgrade every building on every one of my planets anyway, so stop wasting my time making me go to each individual planet and telling them to build everything.

 

One of the enduring draws of original MoO is the sliders.

 

I don't care if the plumbing is to code on Remulac V. 

 

I made the mistake of not researching this game before I spent my 50 bucks on it. I was quite disappointed when I saw the building que. I just want my sliders for the whole system, MoO1 style.

Also it would be nice to have global change options for slider settings, and maybe the option to lasso sections of stars and change the settings for them easily. Like lasso a whole sector of systems and max out their ship building to gather a fleet big enough to stop a nasty space monster.

In the end, All I've ever wanted really is MoO1, bigger and prettier. 



Anguille_1 #53 Posted 13 March 2016 - 09:49 PM

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Block Quote

 We are experimenting with a slow / limited navigation option outside of starlanes, unlocked via mid-game technology

 

Instead of creating something new, what about making just a 3d version of starlanes....the normal one, the red one and the invisible ones. Instead of changing the entire system, just connect the remaining systems with invisible starlanes which can be used with another specific tech. The AI would see them but the players not.


Playing MOO since 1993

 

Playing MOO Conquer the Stars on GOG Galaxy

 

4x space game CV: Master of Orion, Master of Orion II, Master of Orion III, Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain, Reach for the Stars, Imperium Galactica, Imperium Galactica II, Armada 2526, Distant Worlds, Star Ruler I and II, Endless Space, Horizon, Stardrive, Stradrive II, Sword of the Stars, Sword of the Stars II, Galactic Civilization I - III, LotBS, Lost Empires: Immortals, Space Empires IV and V, Starships Unlimited, Star Wars: Empire at War, Star Wars: Rebellio, Birth of the Federation and Stellaris.


Alain_Vollant #54 Posted 13 March 2016 - 09:54 PM

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After I went though all of the races and read the announcement for the upcoming change, here what I've noted so far:

 

•             Alkaris: are fun to play. I really enjoy their design, ships and way to play.

•             Bulrathis: Was hard to play at first but as soon as I managed to get a foothold on a very rich high gravity world, they became fun to play. I also won my first victory as the winner of the Orion Council.

•             Human: I started by playing with the Humans. Better start from what you know; I guess! Not much change for the previous game but I must admit I did not play them to the fullest extent of their abilities… once the game is                 complete, I’ll sure, revisit them.

•             Mrrshan: I had a blast with those, they were fun and made great space battle

•             Psilon: The Psilon were enjoyable to play but one thing I didn’t like was the fact they were no longer capable to research every aspect of a technology.  That was one of the key features from the original game.  In my                         opinion, that feature should be reinstated. And if the Psilon were to put their hand on a technology they haven’t researched yet, they would get a bonus to research that technology to get access to every facet of it.

•             Sakkra: There were easy to play but, I did not get the feel they had the urge to expand... something should be done to prompt the player to expand... things like overpopulation affecting moral or the need for more food                     sources... etc

 

Races I hope to see making a comeback:

 

  • MOO2 – Gnolam(Luck); Elerian(Psychic); Trilarian(Warp).
  • MOO3 -  Nommo; Evon (mysterious/religious); Cynoid; Raas; Grendarl; Imsaeis; Eoladi; Tachidi

 

Although MOO3 was a flop, I must admist that not everything was bad about it, I found some of the race quite intriguing such ar the eoladi and the Imsaeis. Also, the Ithkul could prove to be a very horrific threat to any race in MOO... right after the Antarans

 

Starships: They could use one more hull design per class and a fourth paint scheme. As for combat, I would like a bit more control… such as choosing the combat formation before the combat start. The ability to retreat if the fight would turn out for the worst. And, at last, the ability to do combined fleet action if we are allied with another race.

 

Military advanced post/bases, and starbases should be more compatible with the ship’s design of each race. Right now, they all look the same no matters which race build them. I would also allow customisation such like adding module that would affect commerce, space travel, culture or diplomacy.

 

Technologies: I’d love to see some of these technologies make their way into the game:

 

•             Bomb Shelter: to help protect the planet’s population against bombardment.

•             Cloaking devices (for ships)

•             Stellar Converter as a weapon platform for planet

•             Fighter Bases

 

Some technology could also have an impact on the government. One of the concept in MOO3 was that the bigger your empire was, the harder it was to administrate (morale ??)... and certain technology could help to give relief to the problem .

 

Wonder System: Like in Sid Meyers’ Civilization, I believe a Wonder system could improve the game experience. They would be divided into 2 categories:

 

•             Racial Wonders: These types of wonders would consist of achievement that would tweak/modify the race’s core abilities. These would represent choices that a race will do as a society as a whole as they arrive at a certain cross road.

•             Galactic Wonders: These would represent achievement on a galactic scale and would count toward the final victory. An example of such of wonder would be like solving part of the mystery surrounding the Ancient Orionite. Or building the Galactic Chamber of Commerce…

 

Economics: Are simple enough but could be pushed up a little. Either by trading resources available through certain planet or by manufacturing certain product from those same resources.  To add some complexity, certain product could be in high demand by one race as a delicacy or luxury item and, also, could be illegal  to another one. IE a Human wine is highly in demand by the Alkaris as a delicacy and declared illegal by the Sakkra because of its highly narcotic effect on them.

 

Diplomacy: Was easy to use, work ok (better than MOO3) but it could be improved. Feature like sharing a solar system, immigration could be added. Also a better cause to effect could be worked on… things like trade and science agreement could improve your diplomatic status with another race. Also things like hunting pirates, certain discovery or coming to aid to another race can improve your diplomatic standing… but things like planetary embargo, planetary bombardment destruction of planet and stealing tech will damage it and can lead to war. The possibility to do gifts and just plain gossip on other race should also be part of the game.

 

Leaders & Advisors:

 

•             Advisors: Although each race has an adjoin that advise you on different matter and scientific issues, I am looking forward to see an intelligence (Spy) advisor and a military advisor. Those two would greatly add on to the game experience. On the same note, I would also welcome an economic advisor too.

•             Leaders: In MOO2, the game introduced the players to Leaders, both civilian and military, that could be hired and added to your Empire. Each would bring a set of abilities that would boots either your colony or your fleet.

All of these added some flavor to the game and made sure that no 2 game were exactly the same 

 

Culture: Like in SidMeyer's civilization, culture could play a role to add favor to the game. A popular singer can become high sought by another race or a painter's art could be worth a fortune to somebody else.

 

Galactic council: should be use more than just selecting the head of council… it could be used to pass laws, economic measures (ban or approval).

 

Those are my thoughts

 

What do you think.



Moo4 #55 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:28 AM

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View PostFrancois424, on 13 March 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

Disagree about building space being limited.

 

Part of the charm of MoO2 was to take decisions... Do I spend 20 turns terraforming or do I spend those turns building another Titan ?  Do I keep my planet barren but turn her into a 100% production hub ASAP or do other buildings ?

  There is/was a very obvious build order for every level of the game and combination of techs.  Terraforming was stupidly cheap and would be prioritized well before a titan.  If you have to make that decision then you are likely at the end game fighting over enemy planets.  If a newly captured enemy planet is not terraformed (and you are at titan tech) ignore the planet and move on.  

 

Being able to save/import multiple lists would be great too.  Colony A?  Prodlist.txt, Colony B? Sciencehub.txt and so on.  See comments below

 

 

Poster above said it well.  MoO2 buildings are make-work.  There is extremely little thought involved in what gets built when.  This is why saved-build queues are such a popular but misguided request from players.  I don't want a major feature of the game (colony specialization/growth aka eXploit) to be boiled down to a few scripts...   The very idea that a build queue that worked well in a totally separate game, race, galaxy size, tech level and can be transferred to a new setting should be the biggest signal that the building system is broken and not a "game" at all.

 

There is a good thread over in the Legacies subforum that talks about using traits of leaders as 'buildings'.  I like it.  It keeps the ability to specialize systems beyond MoO1's ability but stays away from the drudgery of repeating the same build order over and over.  By the nature of how leaders work, a single planet may only have the capacity for 1-2 leaders which may represent 5-6 different 'buildings' from the MoO2 era.  


Edited by Moo4, 14 March 2016 - 07:30 AM.

I want a moddable Master of Orion 1.5 with focus on interface and pacing.  Come discuss MoO 1.5 ideas HERE!


BionicDance #56 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:33 AM

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Block Quote

 Poster above said it well.  MoO2 buildings are make-work.  There is extremely little thought involved in what gets built when.

 

Oh, I can't agree with that at all. There have been many times when I've had to make choices in MoO2 based on what I needed when...and in what order. Happens all the time.

 

Block Quote

 This is why saved-build queues are such a popular but misguided request from players.  I don't want a major feature of a game to be boiled down to a few scripts... 

 

See, again, I disagree.

Late in the game, when I'm conquering other sides' colonies, I find myself having to re-do the build queue over and over and over again; having a macro script that would just jump-start the building would be very nice to have, because I know my priorities.

But at the beginning of the game, sometimes I need factories before research, sometimes I need pollution-reduction rather quickly, sometimes I find myself at war and need defenses I didn't have...choices need to be made, and that can be part of the fun, even if sometimes it can be a wee stressful. Challenging.

 

Block Quote

 The very idea that a build queue that worked well in a totally separate game, race, galaxy size, tech level and can be transferred to a new setting should be the biggest signal that the building system is broken and not a "game" at all.

 

Not at all. As I pointed out above, context is everything.

 

 

 



Moo4 #57 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:36 AM

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View PostAlondo1, on 14 March 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

I might be the lone voice in the wilderness here, but here goes. . .

 

Buildings are just make-work. 

I hate the tedium of 10  minute turns because I have to decide which stupid building to construct for 100 different planets. I'm going to build and upgrade every building on every one of my planets anyway, so stop wasting my time making me go to each individual planet and telling them to build everything.

 

One of the enduring draws of original MoO is the sliders.

 

Great quotes!  Come join the discussion :)  http://forum.mastero...ould-you-do-it/

 

 


I want a moddable Master of Orion 1.5 with focus on interface and pacing.  Come discuss MoO 1.5 ideas HERE!


Moo4 #58 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:44 AM

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View PostBionicDance, on 14 March 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

Oh, I can't agree with that at all.

 :)  The discussion is half the fun


I want a moddable Master of Orion 1.5 with focus on interface and pacing.  Come discuss MoO 1.5 ideas HERE!


Lucian667 #59 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:54 AM

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View PostBionicDance, on 14 March 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

See, again, I disagree.

Late in the game, when I'm conquering other sides' colonies, I find myself having to re-do the build queue over and over and over again; having a macro script that would just jump-start the building would be very nice to have, because I know my priorities.

 

I agree, even if you have to tweak build scripts for some specific colonies they would certainly save enormous amounts of time and greatly reduce micromanagement. How could they possibly not?

 

While I understand Moo4's argument that in an ideal game, choice of building sequence should not be so predicatble, I think we have to provide systems to work with the game we actually have, not some idealized version that we will never get. MOO 2 was exactly the same, I almost always selected the same sequence of building for every single colony and being able to save that sequence and re-use it would have saved an awful lot of pointless micromanagement drudgery.


Edited by Lucian667, 14 March 2016 - 10:18 AM.


Li_Li_Lynx #60 Posted 14 March 2016 - 12:45 PM

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Are there (Plans*) plants to have like the ship battles but for planet battles where you can use nukes more pin point as you move "troop ship" units.. that could contain X tanks Y planes and Z number of Troops to take control in a tactical fashion?

Edited by Li_Li_Lynx, 14 March 2016 - 03:28 PM.





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